Mini-Microsoft Cutting Room Floor: Comment Stream - Shared Sacrifice and Microsoft Free Radicals

Sunday, March 29, 2009

Comment Stream - Shared Sacrifice and Microsoft Free Radicals

Unmoderated comment stream for the post "Shared Sacrifice and Microsoft Free Radicals"

316 Comments:

Please don't use HP as any kind of example of how to run a technology business. There is no shared sacrifice happening in HP. Senior management took token cuts to base salary, which is a small part of their total comp. On the other hand, the 5% cut imposed on the rank and file is causing real pain. Most people have been seeing zero or below inflation raises for many years, no stock options, benefit cuts, and a never ending series of layoffs. BTW, HP is the master of the "stealth layoff". Hurd will say that there's no "company wide" layoff plan, at the same time ALL the business units are shedding people. Anybody believe he isn't aware of that? He also talks about total headcount, conveniently obscuring the fact that layoffs in the US and Europe are being offset by hiring in India. HP is also laying off engineers and hiring sales reps. Hurd doesn't think HP can gain a competitive advantage by having great products -- his grand plan is to be a low cost producer that's really good at selling the crap. The awful truth is, this strategy will maximize profits in the short to medium term. Nobody cares about the long term any more.

By Anonymous, at March 30, 2009 at 5:28 AM
I received a verbal offer for an internal move, and was waiting for the written offer that was supposed to arive on Friday... when I pinged HR to find out when I should expect to see it... they indicated that EPG NA had just frozen all REQ's... I was SOOOO close to finaly getting some career growth... and now this. I know I should be happy to have a job, but I want to get into a role where I can make a difference, and I feel that's just impossible now.

By Anonymous, at March 30, 2009 at 11:08 AM
i know of a sr program manager, who is useless, just that he was there for 8 years. talk to him and in an hour you will feel that you are the worst person on earth, so much for arrogance, microsoft is a cult which takes people who consider them as god, and keep praying daily, which i will never even if i am paid a lot. so to all those arrogant bullshitters, stop your arrogance before you are nuked and given a begging bowl. god is a great balancer, god will balance things, today you think you are great tomorrow the scales will tilt .. for sure.

By Anonymous, at March 30, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Don't know anyone in Ms. Bick's NYTimes article? Here's one.

But am I in mourning, looking backwards with nostalgia, feeling screwed over, or just wishing I could get my blue badge back?

Nope... far from it.

I feel liberated from the company's whirlpool-like decline over the past decade. And since I'm not in it anymore, I no longer feel like I'm drowning or suffocating. To the contrary... the future looks bright with opportunity to make the kind of difference that 'Softies used to make back in the day. But without the self-protecting egos, micromanagement, and squandered work.

By Anonymous, at March 30, 2009 at 8:36 PM
Indeed - HP is shedding America workers as fast as they can - every Monday another round of emails from team members that have been "WFR" - Work For Reduced. And this is after years of layoffs - so trust me I will switch jobs with anyone at Microsoft so you can experience the joy of working at HP.

By Anonymous, at March 30, 2009 at 11:20 PM
seems mini has been bought over by baldmer. none of my friends in 1400 have been hired back and also i know its not 3600 more but many more in future, we are too huge, too corrupt , too arrogant ... we need atleast 20K more reductions for having things working again.

By Anonymous, at March 31, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Those 3500 additional lay-offs may be in the offing, but there is a concerted effort to "trim the fat", through managing people out without the need of lay-offs. One manager friend of mine told me he was asked to come up with names of 3 people to get rid of to reduce headcount, and now he is having to build a case for firing them, despite the fact he feels they are actually doing a "good" job.

If we want to reduce heads, we should just be open about it and lay these people off rather than destroying their egos, and references, with trivial nagging about their performance and the creation of non-sensical cases for poor performance.

These people who are getting squeezed out under performance terms are left in the cold. They can't really complain to anyone internally about how they are being treated, and neither can they participate in any of the support/networking groups for those who were laid off due to the precarious nature of their positions.

By Anonymous, at March 31, 2009 at 11:20 PM
What about the regorg of Wahbe's organization that was announced yesterday? Does anyone have any insight into how many RIFs will come from that?

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 5:35 AM
"i know of a sr program manager, who is useless, just that he was there for 8 years. talk to him and in an hour you will feel that you are the worst person on earth, so much for arrogance, microsoft is a cult which takes people who consider them as god, and keep praying daily, which i will never even if i am paid a lot. so to all those arrogant bullshitters, stop your arrogance before you are nuked and given a begging bowl. god is a great balancer, god will balance things, today you think you are great tomorrow the scales will tilt .. for sure.

This comment is utter jibberish -- my god, do you actually work at Microsoft? We're doomed.

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM
"seems mini has been bought over by baldmer. none of my friends in 1400 have been hired back"

Yeah, I wondered about that... since reading Mini's "everyone has been hired back!" comment I've done some informal polling of people I know around the company, and most of the people I've been talking with don't know anyone who was hired-back.

I'm concerned that 1) Mini made a statement that isn't accurate, and 2) Mini made a statement designed to minimize the impact of the layoffs, which is a very un-Mini thing to do.

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Microsoft Current and Laid Off Employees -

Here's some insight into Microsoft's Darwinian hiring practices

H-1B and L Visas

Despite significant misconception - these corporate visa programs have NOTHING to do with Immigration and EVERYTHING to do with corporate hiring practices.

Check out the H-1B Only Job Ads on www.brightfuturejobs.com

See for yourself how Corporate Visa Programs like the L and H-1B adversely impact American citizens and greencardholders.

Thanks to generously funded work from Microsoft and other Compete America corporations - the loopholes in Corporate Visa laws make it legal for

1. Microsoft to lay off American citizens and retain guest workers - in my case they retained people living and working in the United States LESS than 3 months

2. Microsoft can hire H-1B and L visa holders and WITHOUT EVER seeking local talent - and these ads prove it.

The ads showcased on the brightfuturejobs.com website are only a subset of over 300 "H-1B" only jobs and 1200 H1b ads (without the specific qualifier only)

These American HELP NOT WANTED ads will not be posted in the United States - these ads are from offshore sites - and unless you go thru extensive hoops, you'd never find these jobs.

Microsoft, is the LARGEST employer of guest workers in the world - period. H1B workers are part of this number - the other larger number - NOT currently regulated by Congress are L visa holders - people transferring from a different division of Microsoft.

Make no mistake - this story as nothing to do with immigration - everything to do with hiring practices and labor arbitrage - lowering the overall cost of labor.

How do I know? Less than 3 weeks after getting laid off from Microsoft an H-1b recruiter contacted me about a dumbed down version of my old Microsoft job - at a 50% paycut. They had no intention of hiring me for this job (they gave me an immediate deadline take it or leave it - and can use this as justification to prove to the US government that American workers are not available.

Would you take a 50% paycut for the job you held 3 weeks earlier?

Support www.brightfuturejobs.com -

Give American citizens and Greencard holders a fair chance to compete for US jobs.

The job you save may be your own.

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Stop whining about this H1-B thing because it just makes you look incompetent. If you really just want to live off jobs artificially protected by the govt then go work for the govt. I'm sure they _do_ discriminate against foreign workers =). Microsoft cannot be competitive if it only hires what you deem to be skilled American workers. Sorry to be blunt with you but… dude… there are a lot of smart people in this world and if you want the company to have the money to hire you it must be competitive. Raw smarts, much like incompetence is pretty uniformly distributed.

This all coming from a former H1-B and current greencard holder. Believe it or not you're the reason I left the company (before the entire economic crisis and what not). Too much headcount growth, not enough good attrition. I miss the few hardcore years I experienced and to think I wasn’t even part of the true hardcore times. I first joined Microsoft in 1999 from a top US school. I fought tooth-and-nail for my job and I got it because I was better than the rest of the folks who interviewed not because Microsoft was exploiting me by paying me a lower salary or was denying you a job because you were more skilled than I was.

The American skilled workers who are not given jobs at Microsoft are a fallacy you'd like to believe. Skilled for what exactly? You know you have to be skilled at the job you're interviewing for to get it! Are there exceptions? For sure! By the nature of statistics there's some poor foreign soul out there who is being exploited and some poor American soul who was denied a job he was otherwise skilled for. But when it comes to high-skilled workers they’re just that: exceptions.

The only exploitation I experienced during my time as an H1-B was from the US govt. It forced me to pay social security and medicare taxes, just like a citizen, even though it was illegal for me to benefit from them (you get fired you have to leave the country; no unemployment soup for you!). So the fact that _you_ get unemployment benefits now is in a tiny part due to high-skilled H1-Bs paying taxes for benefits they’re not entitled to!

I used to love this company, now I just like it. Somewhere along the line it lost my respect, I lost my passion and it became just a job (not that I would work for Google, Apple or any other big company; I'm happy being an entrepreneur). Too many incompetent folks were roaming the hallways asking "how can I be a lead?" from day one and not being able to produce a decent spec despite English being their first language and being college educated. Or my favorite, the dedicated “project manager” (L63 mind you) whose job was to schedule meetings and take notes during cross-group meetings not having a clue what the heck was being discussed. I guess that’s what you get when the free/busy server is down a lot =).

Here’s a tip for you: use the govt provided unemployment benefits to get retrained. Take some courses, read some books, become competent, stop whining and you’ll get a cushy job again. And if you’re still of working age in a couple of decades you won’t have to beg the US govt for a job because the grown-up entrepreneurs of India, China and Eastern Europe will be outsourcing _to_ the US (it’s just good old capitalism at work; don’t think that only Americans can be successful at it).

Peace and I hope you find a non-govt protected job that you’re happy with!

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM
"Stop whining about this H1-B thing because it just makes you look incompetent. If you really just want to live off jobs artificially protected by the govt then go work for the govt. I'm sure they _do_ discriminate against foreign workers =). Microsoft cannot be competitive if it only hires what you deem to be skilled American workers."

I agree with this... in fact, much of the HB1 whining smells a lot like the UAW "I should have a guaranteed job for life" bullshit.

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 4:51 PM
The truth will set you free.

Despite skyrocketing unemployment Microsoft and other corporations intentionally bypass local talent and seek only offshore talent for US jobs in the US.

Best and Brightest has nothing to do with this - check the h1binsider.com for job interview tips - they recommend having another person on the phone during interviews to look up answers to questions - H1 are encouraged to file for any job and not worry about skills because they can learn them on the job.

The H1 only jobs ads on the Bright Future Jobs site spell out exactly what's happening - American help is not wanted -

http://www.brightfuturejobs.com/press/index.cfm?Fuseaction=pressreleases_full&ID=1836

H-1B Want Ads Show that American Corporations are Giving 1st Crack at US Jobs to Foreign Workers

H-1B Want ads specifically targeting current H-1B work visa holders or foreign citizens eligible for the H-1B program dispel the myth that US companies recruit locally before going abroad for their top-dollar, white collar job openings.
Mar-31-2009

Chicago, IL (PRWEB) March 31, 2009 -- Job losses, rather than job gains for U.S. workers, are signaled by 13 "H-1B Only" want ads uncovered by brightfuturejobs.com, a grassroots lobbying organization counteracting claims that Americans can't cut-it in science and technology.

Bright Future Jobs is seeking H-1B reform and is currently displaying a selection of 13 H-1b want ads out of thousands of such ads found on the web. The organization wants to force all U.S. companies to seek local talent - highly skilled specialty workers - for their US job openings before allowing these companies to recruit abroad.

"These want ads are but the tip of the iceberg that will emerge when the Dept of Labor grants permits to U.S. companies to hire foreign workers filling upwards of 85,000 job openings in Fiscal Year 2010 under the H-1B visa program."

It is clear from research conducted that corporations have given citizens from abroad the first crack at these job openings. "These corporations have given other citizens the first crack at these job openings; Congress should immediately enact emergency legislation to give US citizens and green card holders at least the second crack to compete for these US job openings," demanded Donna Conroy, the lobbying organization's director.

Since March 2009, Brightfuturejobs.com has collected over 300 want ads that call for "H-1B only" and over 1200 that designate a preference or target citizens from abroad. Unless unchecked, companies will hire thousands of foreign workers for U.S. job openings starting on October 1, 2009 and continuing through September 30, 2010.

In the effort to research the offering of American jobs to citizens from abroad, Conroy said that the lobbying organization made an interesting discovery. Although some of the wants ads were posted on U.S. based internet job sites, many were not. Most of the web postings aren't available to U.S. internet users searching for jobs. Many job sites in which corporations are hiring citizens from abroad for Americans jobs are filtering or blocking American IP addresses. "No wonder Congress and the American people believe the myth that companies first seek American workers - they can't see these want ads!" said Conroy.

"We've caught 13 companies red handed here. Several of these ads go so far as to proclaim, in effect, 'No Americans need apply'. One corporate want ad states, 'We will not consider Green card holders'," objected Conroy.

Ads say skill is not required, but fees from the foreign worker are

Two of the ads call for entry level skills, or free training. Several state ''any graduate, any specialization - graduation not required.'' Infotech Global, with offices in New Jersey, conducted walk-in interviews in India. They also require the employee to sign a bond contract, requiring the foreign worker to pay a fee if the worker doesn't stay with the company for at least 18 months (pg. 4).

According to their ad, Infotech Global requires the foreign worker to deposit $2,050 in a jointly held bank account between the company and the foreign worker (pg. 3); ISHIR Infotech, a minority-owned company in Texas also states in their ad that the foreign worker must pay for visa fees of $1,570 (pg.11). According to H-1b law, employers are required to pay for all visa processing fees.

Ebusinessware, located in New York City and recruiting 20 database admins to work in Malvern, PA (pg. 5) requires a deposit of $1,660 that would be forfeited if the employee quit before a two year period, according to the company handbook posted on their website.

Ads show companies range from small to global, some receive direct government funding

At least two companies are recipients of government contracts or awards. Viva USA, based in Illinois, received a GSA IT Schedule 70 award; Software International received $250,000 award from the state of New Jersey. Software International's want ad (pg. 14) specifically targeted unemployed H-1bs with the headline ''Have H-1b But No Job?''

An ad from AIG's offshore subsidiary (pg. 13) is seeking an H-1B who's currently in the US with another employer. Despite attempts by some legislators, the Employ American Workers Act (EAWA) doesn't bar AIG from recruiting in this matter.

Ad #11, eliminating US citizens and green card holders, is attempting to fill a position in Sunnyvale, CA where the foreign worker would be hired by IBM India.

Benefits Offered in Want Ads
Many of these ads list standard benefits packages, with unique perks like free guest or corporate housing. Datavibes, located in Pennsylvania, offers to cover the first 6 months of car payments for the foreign worker (pg. 12). Many offer ''free Green Card processing'' as a company benefit.

Companies or job openings were in these states: CA, GA, IL, NJ, PA, TX

###

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 5:15 PM
The H1 only jobs ads on the Bright Future Jobs site spell out exactly what's happening - American help is not wanted -

http://www.brightfuturejobs.com/press/index.cfm?Fuseaction=pressreleases_full&ID=1836

This is hardly an unbiased, reputable source. Not worth the read, IMO.

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 5:53 PM
Can someone out there tell me how Rajat Taneja made it to VP after destroying MSFT's small business effort? He's in search, where he can do no harm, but man, talk about failing upward.

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 8:32 PM
MS1400 and others interested in a fair chance to compete for American jobs - don't listen to bullies - draw your own conclusions. Those that protest too loudly may have something to hide.

Fact - Thanks to deep corporate funding - Corporate Visa laws - developed for Corporations - make it LEGAL for employers to intentionally by-pass qualified Americans.

Fact - the reason Microsoft can't find qualified Americans - MIcrosoft DOES NOT WANT TO FIND THEM - and the job ads prove this.

Fact - Since March 1, there are over 300 "H-1B only job ads" for US jobs in the US - but the jobs are NOT for Americans. These job postings only available on offshore sites and without going thru hoops, not easily available available in the US.

FACT: Microsoft and other Compete America Corporations have been aggressively recruiting 85,000 H-2B candidates and bypassing Americans - despite record unemployment.

Fact - the H1-B corporate visa program is plagued with abuse and fraud. In Oct 2008, the UCIS found fraud in 13% of H1-b applications and technical violations in another 7%.
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm

Fact -
Congress is listening. There is work underway to fix the fraud and abuse to give American job candidates a fair chance to compete for jobs in America.

Fact - Congress needs to hear from the Tech community - the people directly affected by these egregious actions.

Get the Facts.
Some useful sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa
www.programmersguild.org
www.brightfuturejobs.com

The job you save may be your own

By Anonymous, at April 1, 2009 at 9:21 PM
Fact - the reason Microsoft can't find qualified Americans - MIcrosoft DOES NOT WANT TO FIND THEM - and the job ads prove this.

This is very true. American corporations are looking for slavish employees who work like robots, and you don't find them in America anymore. you gotta import them.

The visa laws are doing a disservice to American citizens and they have to be changed. Write to your Congressman and please do your bit.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 12:40 AM
"Fact - the reason Microsoft can't find qualified Americans - MIcrosoft DOES NOT WANT TO FIND THEM - and the job ads prove this."

This is very true. American corporations are looking for slavish employees who work like robots, and you don't find them in America anymore. you gotta import them.

The visa laws are doing a disservice to American citizens and they have to be changed. Write to your Congressman and please do your bit.

FACT: You are all a bunch of whining asshats looking to blame your misfortunes on whatever easy out you can find.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 11:33 AM
To the people that dismiss the fact that US corporations bypass QUALIFIED Americans and Green Card Holders:

Keep drinking the Koolaid

You do not know how lucky you are. Count your blessings knowing that foreclosure, keeping your children fed, and healthcare do not keep you up at night.

This is not about whining, its about equal opportunity.

American citizens and green card holders have earned the right to compete for jobs - and be evaluated on the strength of their skills and experience.

How's this for fair?
Interview for US opportunity - H-1B visa (.net)
http://www.itjobscareer.com/2009/01/interview-for-us-opportunity-on-h1b.html

How's this for best and brightest skills? (source - h1btips.info)

- Contrary to popular belief H1B interviews are typically the easiest technical interviews.
- Resumes are modified, technical skills added, certifications added, job histories modified to perfectly fit job descriptions.
- Client reviews the resume and pretty much believes 90% of what is on the resume is true. Since the resume has been modified to fit the job position, the client thinks they have found a perfect fit.

Contractor Job Interview tips
◊ The manager is a functional guy, so don't be to worried just communicate clearly. If you communicate clearly he will hire you.
◊ Don't worry about what you don't know, you can learn the skills on the job and the client will never know it.

- Wear a hands-free phone headset for the phone interview to quickly look up information during the interview. Have relevant websites up and ready, as well as print outs and books ready for quick look ups to answer interview questions during the actual interview.

Goggle is the H1B contractor's best friend during the phone interview.

First 3 Months on the Job
Become friends with the other contractors to learn what you need to know and how to impress the boss.
- Quickly get with the other contractors onsite and get assistance on the assignment.

Don't worry if you don't have the skills - your functional boss has no clue that it should have only take you one week to write a simple report.

You repeat the cycle for three months and finally you have become fairly proficient at the skills required for this job and your boss thought you were an expert the whole time.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 1:24 PM
"You do not know how lucky you are. Count your blessings knowing that foreclosure, keeping your children fed, and healthcare do not keep you up at night."

Let's be clear here: these issues keep me up at night. What does NOT keep me up at night is the HB1 issue, which is largely a red herring and used by disgruntled people looking to make sense out why they've lost their jobs.

Read what you wrote very closely above -- most of it is complete rubbish. I would *certainly* be aware if an interview candidate was looking up information in books or on the web as I was asking questions. Good friggin' grief.

As for the substance of how HB1's "trick" their way into positions: I'd like to sit down with you over beer and discuss how many "talented American workers" I've watched do THE EXACT SAME THING over the years.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 6:09 PM
Fact: Show me a anti-H1B person, and I'll show you a person who is either a racist or so lacking in talent that they have to lick the boots of someone else to protect their jobs.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 9:22 PM
The H1b insider tips were direct quotes from h1b visa holders in India.

The bottom line - there is no shortage of local talent. It is WRONG to intentionally bypass qualified American citizens and green card holders.

Three hundred plus "H-1B only" job ads illustrate how employers like Microsoft abuse corporate visa laws and deliberately avoid hiring local talent. By the way, Microsoft's abuse of L-1 visas is even more egregious. L-1 visa holders are intra-company transfers.

American citizens and green card holders deserve a fair chance to compete for jobs in the USA.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 9:26 PM
"American citizens and green card holders deserve a fair chance to compete for jobs in the USA."

American citizens have become morbidly obese, lazy and entitled. It's time for a shake up, chief.

Perhaps this will get some of you 300-pounders back on your A-game as you try to figure out how to deal with an actual competitive threat.

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 10:24 PM
yay more H1B discussion!

By Anonymous, at April 2, 2009 at 10:41 PM
American citizens have become morbidly obese, lazy and entitled. It's time for a shake up, chief.

Perhaps this will get some of you 300-pounders back on your A-game as you try to figure out how to deal with an actual competitive threat.

LOL. Do people in your country face a competitive threat from foreigners? Can foreigners move in large numbers to China or India even if they want to? (Of course no Westerners would move to those slummy countries, but maybe Vietnamese or Bangladeshis).

Do you realize the irony of coming to this great country, from that slum of yours, and then in turn calling Americans obese and lazy?

Americans built this great country and all the technology that you take for granted, over centuries with their sweat and blood. If you are so "competitive", why is your country the mess that it is? If you go back to where you came from, Americans will be just fine.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 9:00 AM
FACT: You are all a bunch of whining asshats looking to blame your misfortunes on whatever easy out you can find.

Dude, what is unreasonable about asking companies in America to hire Americans? Do you know of any other nation that so actively undermines its own citizens when it comes to jobs?

Americans, please write to your Congressman. This is not about race or ethnicity. Americans of all races are being discriminated against in favor of cheaper and more submissive foreigners, who are just happy to be here.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Stop whining about this H1-B thing because it just makes you look incompetent. If you really just want to live off jobs artificially protected by the govt then go work for the govt. I'm sure they _do_ discriminate against foreign workers =). Microsoft cannot be competitive if it only hires what you deem to be skilled American worker.

It actually doesn't speak of the competence of Americans. It says they are perhaps not as slavish and don't accept third world wages.

Artificially protected? Asking for Americans to be hired by companies in America is "artificial protection"? Are you out of your mind?

No other country in the world hires foreigners in such large numbers to undermine their own citizens. And that is not artificial protection.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 9:12 AM
Setting the record straight. Don't fall into the trap - Corporate visas are widely misunderstood.

Corporate Visa Programs (including the H-1b and L-1) are about CORPORATE HIRING Practices NOT IMMIGRATION

Corporate Visa programs, benefit Corporate America, not American citizens.

Under current Corporate Visa laws, it is LEGAL for employers to

-Layoff American citizens and green card holders and retain guest workers (even those in the US less than 6 months)
-Bypass American citizens and greencard holders and exclusively hire guest workers offshore for US jobs in the US
-Replace current American workers with guest workers.

Check out the H-1b only want ads on www.brightfuturejobs and see for yourself why senators will introduce H-1B and L-1 reform legislation.

We need your help to restore fair competition and allow American citizens and greencard holders to compete for jobs in our country.

Get the facts, Tell a Friend, and Tell Congress.

www.brightfuturejobs.com

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 12:41 PM
Artificially protected? Asking for Americans to be hired by companies in America is "artificial protection"?

Yes. It is.

How do you not see that?

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 1:15 PM
>> "Artificially protected? Asking for Americans to be hired by companies in America is "artificial protection"? Are you out of your mind?"

You don't seem to understand how a globalized market economy works. Companies hire based on competency not on nationality. A company's primary purpose is not public service. A government's primary purpose is public service. Governments prioritize nationality over competence. Companies don't. The definition of articicial protection is when you force a company to prioritize nationality over competency/efficiency. Much like why American-auto manufactures were forced (during the Bush administration) to purchase US steel (incidentally from US Steel) despite being lower in quality and more expensive than foreign steel. And look how well they're doing compared to their foreign counterparts!

>> "No other country in the world hires foreigners in such large numbers to undermine their own citizens. And that is not artificial protection."

When you'll get your head out of your ass and learn about the world economy you'll find that most other countries have a foreign guest worker program.

The US issues 65,000 such permits yearly which makes up for a 0.0003% of the working population in the US (census shows there are 186 mil working age folks in the US in 2005). All countries you can name accept at least that many foreign workers.

If you're crying foul that you can't get a job because you're unfairly competing with 0.0003% of the working population then you're probably incompetent for the position you're applying for.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 4:16 PM
hey kiddies, this is the idiot who didn't sell at 37, I managed to get out at 19.55 with ESPP, hope you did too

the whole market goes but, MSFT goes down

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 4:17 PM
After how many versions of Office and I still cannot cut, paste, indent bullet lists in Word in any maintainable fashion. My entire resume is mangled just trying to reorder a simple bullet list.

I feel like MSFT is still kicking me even after being laid off. Perhaps I should switch to InfoPath for my resume? (not)

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 4:30 PM
And wtf must Word insist on giving me a final (un-removable) blank page on every document I make?

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Do people in your country face a competitive threat from foreigners?

Yes! Most European countries face the same competitive threat. Even Eastern Europe which in the last decade went through a real estate boom with lots of construction. The sites were full with Chinese workers because of a shortage in labor (many local workers were helping Western Europe with their real estate boom).

Americans built this great country and all the technology that you take for granted, over centuries with their sweat and blood.

Ehhh dude, were you outside smoking pot during History class? The US only exists for a little over two centuries and (luckily) bloodshed has been a pinch compared too all the idiotic European wars over the last millenium. This great country was built by waves and waves of immigrants. Look back in your ancestry. There might be a H1-B high-skilled worker somewhere in there. Ewww... can you live with youself now? LOL =)

If you are so "competitive", why is your country the mess that it is?

Precisely because the competitive people do leave to make a better life somewhere else.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 5:20 PM
Here's some napkin math on H1B (aka an elementary explanation of supply and demand).

My company needs to hire 100 engineers. There are 10 other companies in my industry hiring the same. The US job field has 800 applicants who meet criteria to be seriously considered. So there are 800 applicants and 1,000 openings. In order to secure one of these applicants I will have to offer a salary better than my competitors, say $100k instead of $80k.

Now in India and China there appear to be another 800 qualified applicants each. 2,400 total qualified applicants. I can pay $20k each to bring them over, and pay them $80k going rate this time. Same difference right? Not so! Next time around, there are still leftover applicants in the US pool and they are ready to accept $70k as are the new grads and the H1Bs inline in India and China. The hires I made last year don't need any COL increase because what are they going to do, interview for another company paying $70k?

5 years down the road there are still 1,000 openings, but thousands of qualified applicants due to as many H1Bs as possible being brought over by me and other companies, new grads, and new H1Bs waiting overseas.

The base pay for MSFT lvl 59 is $70k, same as it was 10 years ago!

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 5:27 PM
None of my talented friends -- including those who have been laid off recently -- are whining about HB1s.

All of you who are: join a fucking union, for chrissakes. Those of us who can live with competition don't care about a few HB1 guest workers, but those of you who need a guaranteed paycheck should probably try to duplicate the lives of your counterparts on the assembly lines.

MURCA FOR MURCANS!

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM
I know when I was hired a couple years back at level 59 I made well over 70k. And two friends who graduated at the same time got the same offer I did.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 7:28 PM
hey kiddies, this is the idiot who didn't sell at 37, I managed to get out at 19.55 with ESPP, hope you did too

Do we get to say, "Neener, neener." when it goes above 19.55? :)

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 8:42 PM
> The base pay for MSFT lvl 59 is $70k, same as it was 10 years ago!

Hmm. 10 years ago level 63 was paid 70-75K (it was a different level system - I have forgotten whether it was level 12 or something). So the corresponding level 59 must have been lower. Please get your numbers straight ...

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 9:47 PM
The sense of entitlement and superiority complex among the foreigners at Microsoft is incredible. Instead of being thankful for being able to escape the filth of their countries, they have the gumption to call Americans lazy and fat! Funny stuff.

In Mumbai, India there is violence against poorer North Indians who moved there for jobs. These same hate-mongers come here and preach about a globalized economy. The hypocrisy of these people is staggering.

Of course Americans can compete with third-worlders in competence. But they are not happy about the lower wages that come with a huge influx of foreigners. And definitely cannot compete in slavishness.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 10:25 PM
"the whole market goes but, MSFT goes down"

Yeah. It's fallen more than most, is cheaper than most, and yet is the first big tech stock to stall on this rally. -3.5% for the year, and yet peaks ahead of Apple (+36%), IBM (+21%), and Oracle (9%).

They should change the symbol from MSFT to SELL, JUNK, or POS.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 10:30 PM
The US issues 65,000 such permits yearly which makes up for a 0.0003% of the working population in the US (census shows there are 186 mil working age folks in the US in 2005). All countries you can name accept at least that many foreign workers.

What about the students who enter the country every year. I believe their h-1 visas are issued outside this 65,000 quota after they leave school. Most of these students are in engineering fields. And your percentages math is off by a factor of 100.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 10:38 PM
April 2, 2009 Business Week - It's Time to Overhaul H-1B http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_15/b4126063331942.htm
...
What myths distort the H-1B debate?

The biggest may be that employers can hire H-1B visa holders only when there is no American for the job.

The program, run by the U.S. Labor and Homeland Security Dept., has no such constraint.

Nor do employers getting the visas have to demonstrate a shortage of U.S. workers in their field.

Indeed, they can opt not to recruit American candidates and to give preference to foreign workers...

"H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker."

This is not just a hypothetical possibility. According to news reports, a number of major U.S. companies require American employees, as a condition of their severance pay, to train H-1B workers to do the work they do.

This process, often called "knowledge transfer," is a key step in offshoring the tasks to a low-cost country."

Another myth: H-1B workers are the world's best and brightest. While some are truly exceptional, they make up a small share of the visa holders. The minimum degree required to hold an H-1B visa is a bachelor's degree or equivalent experience, hardly a rare commodity.

Instead, companies frequently turn to H-1Bs because they can be paid below-market wages. This contradicts the visa program's intent (and helps push wages down for American employees). But it is a common practice, given the gaping loopholes in the regulations.

In 2008 the Labor Dept. certified more than 5,000 applications for H-1B positions paying less than $15 an hour. In 2005, the latest year for which there are demographic statistics for the program, the median yearly wage for new H-1B recipients, including the many with master's degrees and years of experience, was $50,000.

That's comparable to the $51,000 median salary paid to entry-level U.S. workers with only a bachelor's degree in the field.

Then there's the mistaken belief that granting H-1B visas helps prevent the outsourcing of American jobs. In fact, the program is expediting that offshoring, and not just because of "knowledge transfer." ...

Perhaps the most dangerous myth of all is that the H-1B program has the same advantages for foreign workers—and the economy—as permanent immigration does.

High-skill immigrants who stay permanently in the U.S. make enormous contributions to the economy through their work, research, and entrepreneurialism.

But the H-1B is a temporary work permit, one that allows participating foreigners to be mistreated. The visa, remember, is held by the employer, not the worker. That considerably diminishes the H-1B holder's bargaining power for better wages and working conditions.

Some H-1B workers are eventually sponsored for permanent residency, but, again, this is at the discretion of their employers. Because the number of guest workers far exceeds the number of available employment-based green cards, H-1B workers can get stuck where they are for as long as 10 years, with no ability to switch employers or even get a promotion.

The H-1B program can be cleaned up by closing loopholes and increasing oversight. Senators Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) and Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) are expected to reintroduce a version of last year's bipartisan reform bill in the coming weeks. Passed into law, it would require employers to try to hire Americans first and to pay H-1B workers market wages. It would also bar employers from replacing American workers with H-1B holders. Perhaps most important, it would create a random-audit process to ensure compliance with the rules.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 11:43 PM
One of the MS1400, I'm an experienced American tech worker, and proud of the long list of my accomplishments.

Give me a fair chance to compete - that's all I want. I'm confident that I can hold my own and take on competition from anyone, anywhere.

By Anonymous, at April 3, 2009 at 11:58 PM
"Do we get to say, "Neener, neener." when it goes above 19.55? :)"

considering how many worthless options and stock awards i have, "neener, neener" would be music to my ears

but sorry, MSFT is a dog, sell it as soon as you get it

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 10:38 AM
"The sense of entitlement and superiority complex among the foreigners at Microsoft is incredible. Instead of being thankful for being able to escape the filth of their countries, they have the gumption to call Americans lazy and fat! Funny stuff."

Uh, Skippy, I'm the guy who called my fellow 'murcans lazy and fat -- I was born and raised in West Virginia from good blue collar Irish stock, thank you very much.

I've seen the kind of people who scapegoat foreign workers to make themselves feel better for being unable to hold down a job, and YOU ARE ALL DOUCHEBAGS. I wouldn't hire a single one of you. Ever.

You're not worth my time.

Microsoft needs to clean house and get rid of all of you -- every last one. I would happily see you all out of work and replaced with HB1s -- and good fucking riddance. So maybe it means a huge shake-up for the very fabric of our country -- LONG OVERDUE.

Long overdue, because you're all way too entitled.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 12:28 PM
I do not understand your point of view nor what makes you so angry. Why are you against giving your colleagues, classmates, or neighbors a fair chance to compete?

We are not saying we have a right to the job - we are saying we want a fair chance to compete for the job.

What's wrong with that?

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 1:57 PM
"We are not saying we have a right to the job - we are saying we want a fair chance to compete for the job."

Yes, a fair chance to compete by excluding anybody who might be more talented than you. Sounds perfectly reasonable ... to people who are complete losers.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 2:39 PM
"I do not understand your point of view nor what makes you so angry. Why are you against giving your colleagues, classmates, or neighbors a fair chance to compete?

We are not saying we have a right to the job - we are saying we want a fair chance to compete for the job."

That's not what you're saying at all.

You people want it both ways: you want to live in a capitalist society that thrives on competition, yet you want to control and limit the definition of that competition.

Your challenge is to understand competitive threats -- regardless of orign, be it fellow Americans or HB1 guest workers -- and determine how to ensure that you beat the competition.

Instead of looking inward and meeting the new competitive threat head-on, you do what unionized workers do when faced with a new competitive threat: you cry foul and demand that your jobs are protected.

That is NOT the way capitalism works. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure that you come-out on top by using your brains to make yourself more attractive to employers than the competition, regardless of where the competition comes from.

Meet the challenge, don't whine about the challenge.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 3:33 PM
That is NOT the way capitalism works. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure that you come-out on top by using your brains to make yourself more attractive to employers than the competition, regardless of where the competition comes from.

The competition comes from places where they are ready to work for $36K/year in the US. 36K is the minimum H-1B salary. Without the minimum they would probably even work for 10K/year. How are Americans supposed to compete with that? People here have college loans to pay off, unlike in Asian countries where it is much cheaper to go to college.

If permitted American corporations would replace most of the jobs with Indians, Chinese and Bangladeshis. Why would Burger King pay $10/hour to a guy flipping burgers when you can hire a Bangladeshi for even less and make more profit for the company? Benefits of capitalism for who?

You seem to be advocating uncontrolled immigration that is beneficial to a few wealthy people but will reduce the quality of life for the majority of Americans.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 5:31 PM
I've seen the kind of people who scapegoat foreign workers to make themselves feel better for being unable to hold down a job, and YOU ARE ALL DOUCHEBAGS. I wouldn't hire a single one of you. Ever.

No one is scapegoating foreigners. Many Americans want to change the immigration policies that are encouraging immigration in a time of economic crisis, when millions of Americans have already lost jobs. Yeah, more cheaper labor is good for corporate profits, but not good for Americans in general. Trickle down doesn't work. Is that too hard to grasp for an inbred West Virginian DOUCHEBAG?

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 5:37 PM
It's amazing how many idiots are hung up about non-American workers at MS. The visa classifications you are talking about account for about 10% of total employment at MS. Which only means you aren't qualified for the other 50,000 jobs that MS accounts for in the Puget Sound region. Time to move on and bring your ignorant vile to another employer!

As for mini saying he is not aware of anyone who did not find a new job, he must be getting cloistered in his old age - I knew a half dozen who got RIF'd and none of them found a new role before 3/23.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 6:41 PM
getting the numbers straight (from old mini post) - http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/library/MSCompGu.jpg

you're claiming the numbers are any different now? Or were in '99 after ladder changed to 59?

oh, and MS' statement to the senator from Iowa is that 15% of employees are H1B, so get your numbers straight.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 6:59 PM
"Is that too hard to grasp for an inbred West Virginian DOUCHEBAG?"

An inbred West Virginian douchebag who has managed to keep himself employed through the crisis, and who -- if he was laid off -- would not spend his time crying about HB1s, but rather figuring out how to become competitive again.

Just sayin', y'all could spend less time bitching and more time working to make yourselves more employable.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 7:36 PM
Time to move on and bring your ignorant vile to another employer!

Ignorant vile? To see that you gotta go to an Asian country and see how they treat foreigners in their countries. Or how they treat people from other parts of their own country.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 8:07 PM
Just sayin', y'all could spend less time bitching and more time working to make yourselves more employable.

I am very much employed and employable. Just not happy with the fact that excessive immigration puts downward pressure on salaries for everyone. esp. in a time of recession.

Writing to your Congressman to try to change some of these asinine laws is not "bitchin".

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 8:10 PM
Great point. First we should toss out the H1Bs, because Microsoft was founded by Americans. Then we should get rid of the women, who put downward pressure on men's salaries. After all, the founders of Microsoft were men. Then them there negroes can go too. The founders of Microsoft were all white, so you should be too. Let's toss out any man with their ears pierced. I didn't see Willy Gates pulling THAT shit.

See, because none of these restrictions are at all artificial.

You're right, implementing these restrictions would decrease the supply pool while keeping Microsoft's demand constant, and thereby increase salaries for those who remain -- at least in the short term. Let's do it!

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 8:31 PM
Yes, a fair chance to compete by excluding anybody who might be more talented than you. Sounds perfectly reasonable ... to people who are complete losers.

Not the OP, and I'm against the quicksand of "lay off visiting workers first", but ...

Do you really believe that most positions filled by H1Bs go to the most talented candidate?

Seriously?

We must disagree. I believe they go to the cheapest. Talent has little to do with it.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 9:19 PM
Great point. First we should toss out the H1Bs, because Microsoft was founded by Americans. Then we should get rid of the women, who put downward pressure on men's salaries. After all, the founders of Microsoft were men. Then them there negroes can go too. The founders of Microsoft were all white, so you should be too. Let's toss out any man with their ears pierced. I didn't see Willy Gates pulling THAT shit.

See, because none of these restrictions are at all artificial.

You're right, implementing these restrictions would decrease the supply pool while keeping Microsoft's demand constant, and thereby increase salaries for those who remain -- at least in the short term. Let's do it!

I don't know if you are an American or a h-1b, but here is a little thought experiment for you.

Imagine US removes all these "artificial restrictions" to people moving here. Half of India and China and all of Bangladesh would be here in a heartbeat. This country would become the new slum of the world. Thats probably Ok for you, but not for most Americans.

In India people are strongly opposed to illegal Bangladeshis moving to India for jobs. I bet though that these same guys come here and talk of "artificial restrictions"!

Comparing excessive immigration to racism and sexism is plain stupid.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 9:21 PM
LOL. Do people in your country face a competitive threat from foreigners? Can foreigners move in large numbers to China or India even if they want to? (Of course no Westerners would move to those slummy countries, but maybe Vietnamese or Bangladeshis).

If Native Americans could resist european settlement in Americas you wouldn't be around to make such statements. And yes mostly Bangladeshis and Nepalese want to settle in India and leave vietnamese into this spat. We can kick your hinney yet again like we did the last time.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 10:27 PM
"Do you really believe that most positions filled by H1Bs go to the most talented candidate?

Seriously?

We must disagree. I believe they go to the cheapest. Talent has little to do with it."

So here's a riddle for you, riddler: if the corporate machine isn't interested in talent but just the cheapest available labor, what in the name of god makes you think that removing HB1 workers will change this AT ALL? Indeed, the only difference you see is that corporate America will start laying-off older workers who cost more in favor of younger workers who will work for less money... thereby driving salaries down, etc. etc. etc.

HB1 is NOT THE PROBLEM, and restricting them is NOT THE SOLUTION.

Capitalism drives the hiring practices of the nation. Plug one hole in the dyke, another one opens up before the first has stopeed dribbling.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 10:44 PM
Newsflash - Microsoft HAS already been laying off older workers and replacing them with L-1 visa and H-1b visa guest workers.

L-1 is more egregious than H-1b. Under current corporate visa legislation, there are NO regulations.

The corporate visa laws are developed for corporations, not citizens. Can you believe that despite the highest unemployment since the depression that US Corporations recruit H-1b only candidates offshore for US jobs in the US?

Something is desperately wrong and these laws must change - quickly, before more people lose their jobs.

By Anonymous, at April 4, 2009 at 11:46 PM
I don't think we should ship visa holders back where they came from, but considering millions more are unemployed every quarter, it is completely unnecessary to bring more workers into the country for the time being. In better times I agree H1B is a good thing. But for the time being let's hold off and allow current residents, green card holders, and H1B holders already in the country compete for them. Adding more H1B visas is not improving competition, it is depressing the economy further.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 12:28 AM
I think you all should shut up about the visa thing. I'm an american, and got my masters in computer engineering from a non-ivy league school. Compared to my friends who where from another country, I had by far the easiest time finding a job. I had over 3 job offers and i only looked for a job for a month. This was last year. If you cannot compete with the foreigners than its your fault that you cannot find a job. I'm decent at what i do and i have no issues finding a job.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 8:25 AM
"Ignorant vile? To see that you gotta go to an Asian country and see how they treat foreigners in their countries. Or how they treat people from other parts of their own country."

I lived and worked all over Asia for over 14 yrs...and your excuse was...?

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Congratulations to the lucky person with 3 job offers last year in one month. Count your blessings that you have a job.

I am personally shocked by the arrogance, bravado and lack of empathy people have for former co-workers.

Guest workers, H-1b and L-1, are being hired for US positions in the US. Because of corporate visa laws, US employers are deliberatly bypassing qualified American candidates for these jobs.

April 1, 2009 was deadline for American employers to submit visa petitions for 85,000 offshore workers on H-1b.

85,000 US jobs - US citizens and green card holders - NOT WANTED. How can that be fair?

There are a finite number of jobs in the United States - why in today's economy would we look offshore for qualified workers when they are literally down the street?

Hiring managers, please give local talent a chance to compete for jobs.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 11:56 AM
"I am personally shocked by the arrogance, bravado and lack of empathy people have for former co-workers."

I am personally sick to death of people like you perverting the argument for the easy sympathy play.

We all have plenty of empathy for our former coworkers and those who aren't working. The point is that tying the HB1 issue to this bad time is not going to help anything. These people will not magically find themselves employed again at their former salaries even if we wipe-out every HB1 job -- please get that through your thick head.

HB1 is not the problem, it's not even a symptom. It feels good to bash on "non-Americans taking American jobs!!!" when times are bad, but THAT IS NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

Stop bashing HB1s and start focusing on the positive, proactive things you need to do to get yourselves employed again. Write your representatives if it makes you feel better, but for the love of christ stop complaining about HB1s.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Microsoft Prefers Visa
Information Week
Posted by Dave Methvin, Apr 4, 2009 04:05 PM
http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/04/microsoft_prefe.html

Planning on landing a job with Microsoft (NSDQ: MSFT) during these hard economic times?

They're still hiring despite the cutback of 5,000 positions announced earlier this year.

But who are they hiring? To paraphrase a commercial for a popular credit card, it might be best to bring your visa card.

Because Microsoft doesn't take just anyone for a position, and they don't take American expertise.

The H-1B visa program was created to allow foreign nationals to work in the United States in professions where jobs could not be filled by American citizens. By those rules, you would think that in tough economic times the number of foreign workers would contract as qualified American workers became available as a result of downsizing.

Given the layoffs happening across the entire tech sector this year, who could possibly argue that the number of H-1B visas should even stay constant, much less increase? Microsoft, that's who.

I have some sympathy for tech companies because Americans haven't been choosing technical and engineering fields over the past decade or so. Plus, it's not like a laid-off person in Microsoft Office support can take a position as an Azure system architect.

However, things are changing. First, there is an uptick in enrollment for computer field; Americans want those jobs. Second, layoffs in the technical sector should be making good American talent available. Third, the technical whiz kids who were drawn to the world of Wall Street have seen the meltdown of its mirage-like financial glory, and may be willing to take a job in the real world.

Let me be clear, I'm not a xenophobe on these issues. If we want open immigration where foreign workers are an an equal footing with citizens for all jobs, then let's do that and be honest about it.

But the H-1B system isn't set up to do that; it's supposed to let companies fill positions they just can't fill with citizens. As long as there are rules, they should be followed and not exploited by a few companies with good connections in Washington DC.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 12:14 PM
"Show me a anti-H1B person, and I'll show you a person who is either a racist or so lacking in talent that they have to lick the boots of someone else to protect their jobs."

That's complete BS. But very American for sure: call someone a "racist" to shut him up. A few hundred years back they were using "witch" for the same purpose.

The fact of the matter is that MS is full of H1B testers, devs and PM's. Many of them are Indians under contract with Tata. They may all be extremely competent and industrious, but most of them are are doing jobs for which there is (and never was) a shortage of US workers. In fact for some of these jobs US workers are being laid off at MS while H1B's in the same positions are being retained.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 2:13 PM
"but most of them are are doing jobs for which there is (and never was) a shortage of US workers"

Quoting and correcting myself here... I meant to write:

...but most of them are are doing jobs for which there is no (and never was) shortage of US workers

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 2:15 PM
"The US issues 65,000 such permits yearly which makes up for a 0.0003% of the working population in the US"

Yes, but these are not the same 65,000 people renewing their visa: these are new people. This has been going on for many years now, with many of these H1B's acquiring permanent residency via employer-sponsored green cards, marriage etc... 10 years is 650,000 foreign workers. It adds up...

Like the other guy said, Americans owe you guys nothing.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 2:34 PM
If you cannot compete with the foreigners than its your fault that you cannot find a job. I'm decent at what i do and i have no issues finding a job.

I will repeat it. Americans can compete with foreigners. But having an excessive number of foreigners, esp at a time of recession, reduces the salaries of Americans. Americans don't need to import more h-1B workers right now. Clear?

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM
If Native Americans could resist european settlement in Americas you wouldn't be around to make such statements. And yes mostly Bangladeshis and Nepalese want to settle in India and leave vietnamese into this spat. We can kick your hinney yet again like we did the last time.

Good job kicking American hinney last time. US should never have got involved there in the first place, and you taught us a nice lesson.

So, if you are so proud of your country, what are you doing in the US? Why don't you go back and work on improving that third world country of yours?

Or is it more fun to live in the US and take shots at Americans?

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 2:51 PM
I hate America and Americans, and I hope we steal all of your jobs and destroy your filthy dog culture.

Allah be praised! Or wait... Buddha? Anyhoo, one of those random magical creatures be praised!

LOLOL

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 4:07 PM
"I will repeat it. Americans can compete with foreigners. But having an excessive number of foreigners, esp at a time of recession, reduces the salaries of Americans. Americans don't need to import more h-1B workers right now. Clear?"

UNCLEAR, and UNTRUE.

Corporate America has roughly a billion tricks it can use to reduce salaries, H-1B IS A RED HERRING and NOT THE PROBLEM.

Clear?

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 4:44 PM
Top 1000 H1B Visa and Green Card Sponsors (2000-2009)
Source: www.myvisajobs.com

Facts
Microsoft is the #1 employer of Guest Workers

Total MS Guest Workers (01-09) 28,800
Total H1B Visas (01-09) 22,726
Green Card (00-09) 6,074
H1B Visa (08) 4,437

Microsoft employs 2x number of guest workers as next highest US employer,IBM (total 12,738)

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 7:08 PM
Microsoft employs 2x number of guest workers as next highest US employer,IBM (total 12,738)

You should get in touch with Tom Tancredo. You both have a lot in common. He also likes to bray about immigration.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 8:01 PM
http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=14498&tstart=0

US Workers need to picket
Posted: Apr 4, 2009 11:28 AM

If you are know of major corporations in your area that hire or contract visa workers I think it's time to picket. Business casual or shirt and tie at the front gates of every corporation. Start from 7-9 and again 4-6 and perhaps 11-1 5 days a week.

It is the only way many with their heads someplace other than reality will see the real discord and conditions. This is something that can be done all over the country and peacefully. Unions do it all the time, time for the US worker, regardless of background and job type to start.

Are you with me?!

bg6638
Posts: 3,223
Registered: 2/8/07
Re: US Workers need to picket
Posted: Apr 4, 2009 11:54 AM in response to: RL

..... This is something that can be done all over the country and peacefully. Unions do it all the time, time for the US worker, regardless of background and job type to start. <<

If you want to make a difference do this ...........

Have EVERYBODY stop buying Microsoft products!!!!

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 8:37 PM
"If you are know of major corporations in your area that hire or contract visa workers I think it's time to picket. Business casual or shirt and tie at the front gates of every corporation. Start from 7-9 and again 4-6 and perhaps 11-1 5 days a week.

It is the only way many with their heads someplace other than reality will see the real discord and conditions. This is something that can be done all over the country and peacefully. Unions do it all the time, time for the US worker, regardless of background and job type to start.

Are you with me?! "

No, because you're retarded.

Go picket, nobody cares. LOL.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 8:51 PM
"Have EVERYBODY stop buying Microsoft products!!!!"

Is this like that don't buy gasoline on Monday and stick it to the oil companies chain e-mail that goes around every few years?

Yeah, I think it is.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 8:52 PM
"Have EVERYBODY stop buying Microsoft products!!!!"

Good job, American. Sabotaging your own economy will sure show those dirty foreigners who's boss, eh? HAHA!

If this is an example of what a competitive American is like, I shudder to think what sort of trash the uncompetitive ones are.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 10:38 PM
Corporate Visas are about corporations, not about US citizens, GC holders, undocumented immigrants, h-1bs or citizens from abroad.

This is a fundamental issue about US governance over corporate recruiting policies. The "us vrs. them" immigration argument - pro or con - is a cover for the corporate governance argument.

You can oppose H1B visas and not be anti-immigrant. H1B workers aren't immigrants - they're only allowed to work here temporarily and then have to return to their home country. That's why they're given visas, not citizenship papers.

You can also oppose H1B visas and not be opposed to H1B workers. They're just people who want to make a little money through their own work, same as American workers.

The problem is with employers who use the H1B visa program to keep American workers in line and to keep wages low. The criticism should be directed at those employers, their paid-for Congress people who enable them, and a program that lets American workers' wages be undercut and their jobs handed over to offshore workers.

By Anonymous, at April 5, 2009 at 11:05 PM
You can oppose H1B visas and not be anti-immigrant. H1B workers aren't immigrants - they're only allowed to work here temporarily and then have to return to their home country.

You should go hook up with Tom Tancredo. You guys can really hit it off! He too likes to incessantly bray about foreign workers!!

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 8:12 AM
There's a clear attempt to paint anyone with any irritation at the H1B situation as 'terrified by competition', 'xenophobic', etc.

I object to this. I have a problem with the H1B situation, but I don't believe I hold an extreme position:

Companies like Microsoft (and especially Microsoft) publicly request greater and greater H1B limits citing that they require this due to a lack of adequate volume of talent in the US.

My objection is that this is untrue. There is certainly sufficient talent inside the US (citizens + green card holders) today. What's lacking, and what these companies seek is "talent that will work for minimal pay".

Other posters have used the term 'slavish' to describe the situation. Sadly, I agree with that description. I'm friends with several H1Bs and they openly admit that they will not make waves, regularly rubber-stamp the ideas of superiors as 'genius' when they're 'challenged', and can't wait for the day when they can get a green card and be able to tell an employer that they can go "f" themselves. In the meantime, they are indeed in a position where they have few options.

Any of these companies could offshore the work, or transfer products en whole to foreign subsidiaries, but they don't. That isn't accidental, it's intentional. If they choose to do so, I fully support them as being within their rights.

However, the notion that objecting implies that we're fringe lunatics is a disappointing retort to a real issue.

Polarization is an argumentative fallacy, and it falls short of addressing an issue.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 11:18 AM
"I'm friends with several H1Bs and they openly admit that they will not make waves, regularly rubber-stamp the ideas of superiors as 'genius' when they're 'challenged'..."

No, really -- some of my best friends are black! NOTE TO THE CLUELESS: we stopped saying "well you know, I have several friends among the group we're discussing, and they all say..." sometime in the early 80s.

As for the substance of your poorly articulated point, I know a shit-ton of American workers who suck up royally to their bosses and don't make waves, and regularly rubber stamp the ideas of their bosses as "genius" in order to get a good review. A SHIT TON. How dare you try to pin this shit on H-1B workers as some kind of unique trait? Jesus.

Your argument is... a bad one.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 11:35 AM
As for the substance of your poorly articulated point, I know a shit-ton of American workers who suck up royally to their bosses and don't make waves, and regularly rubber stamp the ideas of their bosses as "genius" in order to get a good review. A SHIT TON. How dare you try to pin this shit on H-1B workers as some kind of unique trait? Jesus.

Yeah, but those American workers have the option of saying "f you" to their bosses. H1-bs dont have that option. They cannot switch jobs easily in the US. They are just glad to be here in the first place.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 2:00 PM
"Yeah, but those American workers [the ones who suck-up to their bosses] have the option of saying "f you" to their bosses. H1-bs dont have that option. They cannot switch jobs easily in the US. They are just glad to be here in the first place."

Oh yeah, like American workers who suck up to their bosses are in the habit of saying f-you one day and quitting because they can just merrily waltz from job to job whenever the mood hits them, unlike the H-1Bs who are locked into one position.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Come ON, these arguments against H-1Bs are ridiculous.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 4:18 PM
The arguments about corporate visas are not ridiculous. The discussions on this board illustrate what happens when corporations make laws to benefit corporations - and not people.

It is my understanding that the people in India would be appauled to understand that they are in fact taking US jobs away. They understand struggle and strife.

What I do not understand is why there is so much pushback to requesting a fair chance to compete.

With 1200+ jobs advertised offshore for H-1B only, something is wrong with the system and needs to be fixed.

These 1200 jobs are certainly jobs with qualified American candidates.

I agree with the poster who said that the lack of skills is a flat out lie.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 5:25 PM
With 1200+ jobs advertised offshore for H-1B only, something is wrong with the system and needs to be fixed.

These 1200 jobs are certainly jobs with qualified American candidates.

ICE needs to know about immigration fraud. Call 1-866-DHS-2-ICE.

http://www.ice.gov/about/contact.htm

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 5:47 PM
"It is my understanding that the people in India would be appauled [sic] to understand that they are in fact taking US jobs away."

This is the single most asinine comment that's ever been posted on this site.

EPIC FAIL.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 5:48 PM
There's a clear attempt to paint anyone with any irritation at the H1B situation as 'terrified by competition', 'xenophobic', etc.

I object to this.

There is clear attempt to paint H1B as problem that create wage depression. I object to this. H1b not cause this.

Wage depression cause by bacteria in peanut because slavish guest worker from Mexico not report bacteria to agency. Bacteria affect sale of product, cause recall, and cause profit drop. Profit down so losing company layoff and cut IT budget. Domino effect hit tech industry. Healthcare cost also increase adding to misery.

Guest worker from Mexico is to blame. You should get together with Tom Tancredo and bray about seasonal guest worker and illegal alien from Mexico depressing your wage.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 7:18 PM
Looks like the banks use Microsoft's strategy to lay off Americans and replace them with H1-b consultants...

On Thursday, March 30, WSOCTV in Charlotte, North Carolina revealed that bailout recipients Wachovia and Bank of America are utilizing a process known as "on-shoring" to allow them to continue to lay off American workers and replace them with H-1B visa holders.

According to the report, the on-shoring process involves using "third-party consultants to find workers in other countries instead of hiring foreign workers directly." ...

Since the banks are paying the contractor rather than the employee directly, it's not a violation of EAWA... WSOCTV obtained an internal Wachovia document that showed "a Wachovia work group where 12 of 22 software engineers were brought to Charlotte by a technology consulting company called Syenchron." Additionally, a Charlotte resident told WSOCTV that he would be losing his job at Wachovia as soon as he finishes training his replacement - a foreign worker brought in from India to do his job at a lower salary. (WSOCTV, March 30, 2009).

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 8:40 PM
Something to think about - blog post from homeless vet

Discrimination Is Occurring On A Ma*sive Scale Against Qualified US Citizens.
written by Margaret, April 06, 2009
Discrimination Is Occurring On A Ma*sive Scale Against Qualified US Citizens.

The Middle Cla*s Has Been Destroyed.

Families Have Been Torn Apart.
The EEOC, the OFCCP, the DOJ-OSC Have Done Next To Nothing To Protect US Citizens Whose National Origin Is USA.

Immigration Law Firms Are Harming American Workers.

The H-1B Visa guest worker program has “RESERVED” millions of high-value jobs for citizens of foreign countries.

"Fake Job Ads” consistently and routinely DENY, DEPRIVE, EXCLUDE and DISCRIMINATE against United States Citizens during the hiring process.

Here is Cohen & Grigsby, a prominent immigration law firm, displaying their Good Faith Efforts To Recruit American Workers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

When companies have job opening, they "place an order" with job descriptions to third party recruiters like ManPower, Volt, Adecco, Robert Half, etc.

The job descriptions are not advertised publicly so that qualified US Citizens can apply.
This is a violation of EEO, the law of the land and the Civil Rights Act of 1967's "Unlawful Employment Practices'.

The available talent pool in the US workforce is being COMPLETELY BYPa*sED
(and not just under-utilized).

Only mom & pop recruiting firms willing to $ub$cribe to the large third party firms services can see the job descriptions and then submit resumes from H-1bs…

Resume Blaster Streams $ubScribe to their service…
also a violation of EEO… segregating resumes by National Origin…
and it is all automated using information technology.

Out in the field, we are not seeing the job descriptions and
the most meritorious candidates are not receiving any job offers.

US Citizens and Green Card Holders never know the job openings even existed.

This is exclusion / discrimination.

homeless veteran
written by david obert, April 06, 2009

200,000 vets.and millions of american families are homeless/unemployed !
call congress @ 866-220-0044 / 877-210-5351 I.C.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 8:46 PM
"Something to think about - blog post from homeless vet"

Extra bonus points if the homeless vet is missing a leg!

How utterly irrelevant and how completely distasteful -- just because you plaster "FROM THE DESK OF A HOMELESS VET" on an inflammatory, xenophobic blog post does not make it any more worth reading than if a non-homeless, non-vet crazy asshole posts it. I would love to sit down with this "vet" and plumb the depths of his understanding of all the conspiracies he's tossing around.

Jesus Christ people, how low will you sink?

Fuck. Just stop.

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 10:09 PM
Extra bonus points if the homeless vet is missing a leg!

How utterly irrelevant and how completely distasteful -- just because you plaster "FROM THE DESK OF A HOMELESS VET" on an inflammatory, xenophobic blog post does not make it any more worth reading than if a non-homeless, non-vet crazy asshole posts it. I would love to sit down with this "vet" and plumb the depths of his understanding of all the conspiracies he's tossing around.

Jesus Christ people, how low will you sink?

Fuck. Just stop.

Insensitive asshole.

How low will you sink to make a buck off of a slavish h1-b?

By Anonymous, at April 6, 2009 at 10:45 PM
Look for pods, people! Look for pods!! They're not coming - They're already here. CHeck the neck, check THE NECK!!!

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 3:06 AM
OMG shut up. You people that are ranting against visa holders are just coming off as bigoted jerks, and you're not convincing anyone with your arguments.*

*This post brought to you by a native-born American who is happy to work with people from a variety of cultures and backgrounds.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 6:18 AM
"Extra bonus points if the homeless vet is missing a leg!

How utterly irrelevant and how completely distasteful -- just because you plaster "FROM THE DESK OF A HOMELESS VET" on an inflammatory, xenophobic blog post does not make it any more worth reading than if a non-homeless, non-vet crazy asshole posts it. I would love to sit down with this "vet" and plumb the depths of his understanding of all the conspiracies he's tossing around."

I counter Bigoted Homeless Vet Guy with...

PRO H-1B CANCER KID!

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 8:04 AM
"Insensitive asshole.

How low will you sink to make a buck off of a slavish h1-b?"

Oh, I see... we're now just blinkdly accepting the xenophobic claim that H-1B workers are slavish as stated fact.

Sure, sure, that's exactly right -- they're all barely-educated Indians who have clawed their way out of the filthy slums of their home land, willing to suffer horrible working conditions and work for barely above minimum wage because they'll do anything not to be back in Bangalore taking a dump in an open sewer.

That was sarcasm, in case you couldn't figure it out.

My fellow Americans, it's time to stop being isolationist, reactionary fuckwads.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 8:11 AM
Interesting that Mini hasn't posted again since his far-off-the-mark "everyone has been rehired" entry.

I wonder whether he's having the revelation that he's not one of us, he's one of them.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 9:33 AM
Two congressional reports, a number of academic studies have shown that H-1Bs are paid less than Americans.

Underpayment of H-1Bs is usually done in full compliance with the law. The problem is primarily NOT one of lack of enforcement or fraud.

The use of foreign workers for cheap labor pervades the entire tech industry, INCLUDING the large, mainstream firms, and INCLUDING the foreign workers hired from U.S. universities. It is NOT limited to the "bodyshops."

Age is a core H-1B issue. Most H-1Bs are under 30, and since younger workers are cheaper than older ones in both wages and health care costs, employers use the H-1B program to avoid hiring older (i.e. 35+) Americans.

There is no tech labor shortage. No study, other than those sponsored by the industry, has ever shown a shortage.

HR departments routinely exclude CVs of applicants they deem "too expensive"--those that are over age 35 (so managers never see these CVs).

Comparison of American K-12 math/science scores to those of other nations is a red herring, and is rank hypocrisy, since the same employers who claim that "Johnnie can't do math" are laying off tens of thousands of Americans who had been top math/science students when they were kids.

The world's "best and brightest" should be welcomed, but only a tiny percentage of H-1Bs are in that league.
Meanwhile, many of our own best and brightest are squeezed out of the market once they accumulate 10 years or so of experience, and worse, many top college students are discouraged from pursuing the field in the first place.
In other words, H-1B is causing an internal brain drain of American talents.

Though the industry lobbyists claim that the importation of H-1Bs avoids the offshoring of work, the visa is actually used to facilitate shipping the work abroad.

The National Science Foundation, a key government agency, actually advocated the use of the H-1B program as a means of holding down PhD salaries, by flooding the job market with foreign students. The NSF added that the stagnation of salaries would push domestic students away from PhD study, which is exactly what has happened.

The per-capita rates of entrepreneurship and patents among immigrant engineers have been the same as that of the natives. Thus the displacement of the American workers has not produced a net positive effect.

Proposals to establish fast-track green card programs to retain the foreign workers are misguided. First, in the EB-1 green card category, which is for outstanding talents, waits are short.

Second, and more importantly, the foreign workers are mostly young, and would still crowd out American workers of age 35+ even with green cards.
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 9:34 AM
"Second, and more importantly, the foreign workers are mostly young, and would still crowd out American workers of age 35+ even with green cards."

Ooooh... now H-1Bs are the scourge of older workers... of course, the fact that they are roughly .0000001% of the younger working *american* population is something we won't talk about.

Younger workers displacing older workers has been an issue for the last hundred years or so, and has exactly zero to do with H-1Bs.

TRY AGAIN.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:09 AM
As for the substance of your poorly articulated point, I know a shit-ton of American workers who suck up royally to their bosses and don't make waves, and regularly rubber stamp the ideas of their bosses as "genius" in order to get a good review. A SHIT TON. How dare you try to pin this shit on H-1B workers as some kind of unique trait? Jesus.

My. Indignant, are we?

I assumed my point was clear, but that was an error. An H-1B has their residency tied to the employer. If the employer terminates you, you leave the country. Someone with a green card or a US citizen can say "I disagree.", or "Your plan seems to consist primarily of bullshit." - and recognize that the worst that happens to them is termination; they can look for other work. An H-1B doesn't have that option.

You couldn't figure out my point, so you must be right: I must have articulated it very poorly. There certainly couldn't be any other source of confusion.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:27 AM
Oh yeah, like American workers who suck up to their bosses are in the habit of saying f-you one day and quitting because they can just merrily waltz from job to job whenever the mood hits them, unlike the H-1Bs who are locked into one position.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Come ON, these arguments against H-1Bs are ridiculous.

Not just indignant, you're abrasive too. A true multifaceted free opinion!

I'm sorry you feel that it's ridiculous. I'd assure you that you're wrong, but have not illusions that you'd bother to read anything I write in entirety before posting an angry response.

I've left several companies in the past, two without having another job lined up. Why? The situation called for it, I could, and I ended up being far better off at my next employer each time.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:34 AM
"I assumed my point was clear, but that was an error. An H-1B has their residency tied to the employer. If the employer terminates you, you leave the country. Someone with a green card or a US citizen can say "I disagree.", or "Your plan seems to consist primarily of bullshit." - and recognize that the worst that happens to them is termination; they can look for other work. An H-1B doesn't have that option."

You're still not getting it.

The point is that you're discussing the theoretical, not the actual. In actuality, there are millions of low-quality American workers who do nothing other than suck-up and collect a paycheck.

They *could*, but they *don't*. I am far more concerned with the millions of mediocre, shitty American workers than I am with a few H-1Bs who have similar traits... and of course, the many H-1Bs who do awesome work and who are as good as the best American workers (which we can't discuss here, of course) aren't part of this discussion.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:35 AM
"Interesting that Mini hasn't posted again since his far-off-the-mark "everyone has been rehired" entry.

I wonder whether he's having the revelation that he's not one of us, he's one of them."

+1

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Ooooh... now H-1Bs are the scourge of older workers... of course, the fact that they are roughly .0000001% of the younger working *american* population is something we won't talk about.

Younger workers displacing older workers has been an issue for the last hundred years or so, and has exactly zero to do with H-1Bs.

TRY AGAIN.

You seem to have missed the point, and I believe that it was not accidental. This is a poor example of a non sequitor.

The fact that you end your response with 'TRY AGAIN' seems to suggest that you believe you've managed to redirect the discussion. If someone in this chain needs to 'try again' to achieve their goals, I'd suggest that it is you.

(If you really think that your response was applicable and weren't attempting to change the topic (to young vs. old? < eyes rolled >), you've misunderstood the poster.)

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:52 AM
Interesting that Mini hasn't posted again since his far-off-the-mark "everyone has been rehired" entry.

I wonder whether he's having the revelation that he's not one of us, he's one of them.

I'm not attempting to argue with you, but who are we and who are them?

Mini has publicly stated before that he's management, and has responded in ways that subtlely suggest that he's not first-level management, either.

My suspicions about his posting frequency seem to line up with the most intense dates of shipping a certain product. Truly, I believe Mini is just "really busy" at MSFT and has a fraction of the spare time that he'll have after RTM.

If 'us' meant the rank-and-file, then I believe you're right. He isn't. He hasn't ever claimed to be rank-and-file, either. I have always assumed that he was PUM levelish (what that means changes dramatically depending on division), not a Partner but sitting on the 67 bench.

No criticism of anyone here. Just interested in clarification.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 11:02 AM
"You seem to have missed the point, and I believe that it was not accidental. This is a poor example of a non sequitor.

The fact that you end your response with 'TRY AGAIN' seems to suggest that you believe you've managed to redirect the discussion. If someone in this chain needs to 'try again' to achieve their goals, I'd suggest that it is you."

Congratulations, you've revealed this entire discussion to be nothing more semantic masturbation.

The H-1B issue is a non-issue, it's just convenient fuel for the xenophobe's ire.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 11:11 AM
Congratulations, you've revealed this entire discussion to be nothing more semantic masturbation.

The H-1B issue is a non-issue, it's just convenient fuel for the xenophobe's ire.

Readers will decide for themselves whether it is a non-issue or not. You cannot dismiss the issue for others merely by declaration.

Insisting that anyone who harbors any resistance to more H-1B Visas is a 'xenophobe' is (unlike some of your poorer attempts) a perfect example of an 'ad hominem' argumentative error.

The topic is actually a critique of corporations that use untruths to justify hiring people at low-wages, but you've taken it (probably personally) as an attack on H-1B workers themselves.

Some of the recent congressional movement has been to force corporations hiring H-1Bs to pay those individuals competitively with the existing resident workforce for the given position. I suggest that if this occurs, the demand for more Visas/year will decline. (If more offshoring occurs, fine. I'm not concerned about that.)

I've worked for, with, and had work for me some true superstars that were here under an H-1B. I've also had some dead weight that were here under an H-1B. To take either of these experiences and apply them to the entire H-1B talent pool is foolish.

I don't see a single post from you without some level of vulgarity. Your posts are generally insulting in tone and unconvincing in content, full of misdirection, personal attacks, and (failed) attempts to change the issue to something other than it is.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 11:41 AM
"I don't see a single post from you without some level of vulgarity. Your posts are generally insulting in tone and unconvincing in content, full of misdirection, personal attacks, and (failed) attempts to change the issue to something other than it is."

You see vulgarity because this argument does not merit a reasoned response.

This *point* is that the arguments presented against H-1B are absolutely nonsensical, completely illogical and 100% fueled by foreign panic.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 11:59 AM
Corporate Visa programs (H-1B and L-1) are about Corporate Hiring Practices - Not Immigration.

Corporate visa programs, designed by corporations, benefit corporations, NOT citizens.

Until recently, there was enough work to go around so tech workers did not voice opposition to corporate visa programs.

Corporate Visa programs, like cancer, have grown undetected for a very long time.

Loopholes in corporate visa laws make it legal for companies to

1. Layoff American workers and retain guest workers

2. Hire guest workers exclusively and by-pass qualified Americans and GC holders

American Tech Workers - we need your support.

Don't be fooled by the trap that your tech skills alone will get you through this crisis.

Be aware of what's happening around you - lots of highly skilled and talented Americans were laid off from Microsoft January 23, 2009.

You too may be at risk of a layoff.

“Microsoft is hiring 2,000 to 3,000 workers over the next 18 months, offsetting the job cuts. Some of those will certainly be on H1-B visas... Laid-off Microsoft employees aren’t always a good fit for new positions. If you have a laid off General Motors engineer, that doesn’t qualify them for a job as a software engineer.” Ginny Terzano, Microsoft Corporation (Bloomberg, February 20, 2009)

American Tech Workers - Support upcoming legislation to reform H-1b and L-1 Visa Fraud and Prevention.

Passed into law, it would require employers to try to hire Americans first and to pay H-1B workers market wages.

It would also bar employers from replacing American workers with H-1B holders.

Perhaps most important, it would create a random-audit process to ensure compliance with the rules.

Tell a friend. Tell Congress.
For more information
www.brightfuturejobs.com
www.programmersguild.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa
www.myvisajobs.com (to find jobs with AMERICAN HELP NOT WANTED)

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 12:36 PM
12:36pm -- you've posted this before. Quit spamming.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 12:53 PM
<<<<< JOB DESTRUCTION NEWSLETTER No. 2001 -- 4/07/2009 >>>>>

The USCIS announced that it has received enough H-1B petitions to meet the allotment of visas for 2009. Out of the 163,000 petitions that were received the first five days of filing, 65,000 will be chosen by lottery to be issued visas. In addition another 20,000 will be accepted under the
"advanced degree" exemption limit which brings the total up to 85,000.

Last year that total combined with the cap was about 122,000 visas.

Meanwhile, during the first three months of 2009 the high-tech sector in the U.S. suffered its deepest layoffs in seven years, according to a firm that tracks the jobs market.
----
High-tech companies announced job cuts totaling 84,217 in the first quarter.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/high-tech-layoffs-climb-first-quarter/
story.aspx?guid=%7B33AFAB9C%2D0276%2D4883%2D8F8B%2DE5F5009BA0B4%7D&dist
=msr_3

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 12:59 PM
You see vulgarity because this argument does not merit a reasoned response.

This *point* is that the arguments presented against H-1B are absolutely nonsensical, completely illogical and 100% fueled by foreign panic.

No, I see vulgarity due to a particular vocabulary that's commonly referred to as containing 'vulgar' words. I can collect and quote them from these posts if necessary.

Sorry, all I'm seeing are attempts to distract, dissuade, and diminish. I've read some posts from people who seem extremist to me on one end of the spectrum, but some reasonable posts with references as well. On the other end of the spectrum, I see no compelling response, only responses that appear to fall back on claiming that if you don't agree with them, you must be a xenophobe.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 1:38 PM
Fact: Show me a anti-H1B person, and I'll show you a person who is either a racist or so lacking in talent that they have to lick the boots of someone else to protect their jobs.

Those of us who are against the H-1B know that the visa is being used abusively by corporations to discriminate against American workers, for the benefit of stockholders. We are not against the H-1B worker rather how they are being used to get around discrimination laws in America. It is against the law in America to deny the right of any citizen to compete for a job. Ask the civil rights activists, the women who fought for the right to work 40 years ago.

Now Americans are being told they cannot apply for jobs which they may very well be qualified for. This is not only illegal in America but immoral as far as our values are concerned.

The H-1B is a race to the bottom as far as I am concerned. Because of where I worked last I have been hounded by third party recruiting agencies who mistakenly believed that I was an H-1B. They were offering me wages one might earn at a McDonalds with no benefits.

Personally, it has nothing to do with racism to want to work in my own country for decent wages. And I will not stand aside and watch foreign workers take away jobs that I believe citizens can do.

I encourage everyone on this listserve to do the research and take action. It is a matter of law and our future.

One last note: as far as the bootlicking comment goes. It appears to me that bootlicking is almost required in the H-1B process. So maybe we can pick up some unexpected training from that side of things.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 7:03 PM
This is in response to the person who complained that Microsoft had built (what looks like) "a wine bar" across from the new company store in Building 92 a month or so ago. (I don't have time to go back and search for whichever thread that was in.)

I'm the one who said I'd go check it out. Finally did today.

Uh, that's the Microsoft Visitor Center, not a wine bar or executive lounge. The nice lady sitting out front at the desk isn't taking table reservations; she's the Info desk person.

I know the pretty colors are distracting, but that big "Microsoft Visitor Center" sign should have been your first clue. ;)

That said, I was hoping they'd expand the number of displays after moving it. Still pretty sparse given how much company history they could interestingly cover.

And maybe throw in a blooper reel montage of Bill getting hit with the pie, Ballmer getting the eggs thrown at him and jumping around doing the "Developers! Developers! Developers!" thing, etc. You know, just to display our warm fuzzy sense of humor and stuff.

And then do a serious segment on all the employees who were fired or indicted for work-related crimes (Daniel Feussner (RIP), Richard Gregg, Carol Gudmundson, etc.)

OK, now back to your regularly scheduled H1-B / xenophobia / bootlicking conversation, already in progress.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 7:44 PM
Corporate Visa programs (H-1B and L-1) are about Corporate Hiring Practices - Not Immigration.

Corporate visa programs, designed by corporations, benefit corporations, NOT citizens.

You really ought to hook up with Tom Tancredo. You two can bray an anti-immigrant symphony together.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 7:47 PM
"Now Americans are being told they cannot apply for jobs which they may very well be qualified for. This is not only illegal in America but immoral as far as our values are concerned."

Sorry, but I have a visceral reaction whenever anyone mentions our values. *My* values are such that I welcome foreign guest workers even if there are qualified Americans who can do the same job.

Please refrain from speaking in the collective and dragging me into your world view.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 7:55 PM
I welcome guest workers as well. The question is do you welcome giving up the ability to compete, even apply for certain jobs that are set aside for foreign workers?

Unfortunately, this is how the H-1B law currently reads. That is the outrage. If the jobs being posted could be applied for by anyone, then I have no problem with that. As the law currently is written it is perfectly legal to discriminate against American citizens. That is the first thing that needs to change. As long as some employers can get around hiring employees legitimately they will, and that is exactly what the H-1B invites companies to do.

Also, It is no joke when you are laid off and then days later solicited for the same job at half the wage by a foreign third party recruiter as I and another person I know have been. This is another abuse that some of us are beginning to fight against.

Corporations have studied and fashioned entire legal and lobbying efforts around using the H-1B. No less than the criminal Jack Abramoff himself served Microsoft in this capacity. Go ahead: Type Microsoft, Abramoff and H-1B into google.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 9:09 PM
Sorry, but I have a visceral reaction whenever anyone mentions our values. *My* values are such that I welcome foreign guest workers even if there are qualified Americans who can do the same job.

You, sir, have taken the singular act that will shut those of us in the non-believers crowd up. Outstanding, and truly noble!

You are absolutely correct that nobody should impose their values upon you. That is arrogant and inappropriate.

Thankfully, you are of a different ilk; a man of his word, you might say.

Is it safe to assume you'll be resigning your position tomorrow morning to allow you to welcome another foreign worker? Please post afterward about the position so that those best suited have an opportunity to apply.

(For those who came in at intermission: The noble gentleman has charged someone else with including him in their belief system. At the same time, he advocates that others give their positions up for foreign workers (who, poor souls, will work for a third the pay) that he will welcome. Being unwilling to do that himself is the pinnacle of hypocrisy, so to demonstrate the courage of his convictions, I'm assuming he'll be resigning tomorrow. I'm very confident we'll locate a more talented individual overseas, so it's win-win-win all around.)

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 9:24 PM
"(For those who came in at intermission: The noble gentleman has charged someone else with including him in their belief system. At the same time, he advocates that others give their positions up for foreign workers (who, poor souls, will work for a third the pay) that he will welcome. Being unwilling to do that himself is the pinnacle of hypocrisy, so to demonstrate the courage of his convictions, I'm assuming he'll be resigning tomorrow. I'm very confident we'll locate a more talented individual overseas, so it's win-win-win all around.)"

It's called competition, chief. If corporate America can hire someone to do what I do for half-price -- citizen or not -- then so be it, it's the system we live in.

My challenge -- and I've chosen to accept it -- it to make sure I remain competitive, and to make sure I stay ahead of whatever game is out there... be it the fact that I'm getting older and competing with younger workers, the fact that H-1Bs are flooding the country or the fact that my skills are always becoming obsolete if I'm not constantly improving them.

I'm not sure why you're having such a difficult time understanding this. If you want to remain employed, you need to find a way to compete and win regardless of who your competition is.

I really believe that the majority of workers understand this, and it's just a few disgruntled people who don't. Time will tell.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 9:44 PM
Well not so fast Mr. Big Chief ...

In this case it appears that it is all about corruption and politics.

The Issues Behind the Abramoff Scandal Started in 1957

http://tiny.cc/mUZdw

See the link for an excellent balanced look at what you are calling the American way. Many say it is nothing more than a corrupt government subsidy. Hardly healthy competition.

"In 1998, Microsoft initially paid Jack Abramoff $60,000 per month to lobby for the H-1B visa increases. Abramoff's lobbying totals for all of 1998, just for his efforts on behalf of Microsoft to increase the H-1B visas, was $700,000. Abramoff's initial lobbying effort was focused on the Majority Whip, Tom Delay and his Deputy - Chief of Staff, William Jarrell. The final results were that Congress passed the first H-1B increase bill in October 1998.

In 1999, the Abramoff Network fees for lobbying for even more increases in the H-1B visas totaled $560,000 and the Abramoff Network totals for lobbying those H-1B visa issues in 2000 was an additional $480,000. Again the results were that the second H-1B visa increase was passed in Congress in October 2000.

The total dollars paid to the Abramoff Network for lobbying for ALL of the various Microsoft issues (not just H-1B visas) for 1998 through 2000 was a staggering $21.07 Million. It now appears that this was a well placed small investment of Microsoft's huge profits."

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:03 PM
I welcome guest workers as well. The question is do you welcome giving up the ability to compete, even apply for certain jobs that are set aside for foreign workers?

Unfortunately, this is how the H-1B law currently reads. That is the outrage.

Yo! Tom Tancredo called. Like you, he too just absolutely enjoys incessantly braying about those foreigners. Say what you and he get together and really hit it off!!

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:05 PM
Dear Microsoft US Citizen and Green Card Employees,

YOU are at risk of being laid off.

According to internal rumors, the next round of layoffs will occur in May 2009.

In Jan 2009, Microsoft laid off 1400 US citizens and GC holders and retained guest workers on L-1 and H-1B visas.

American citizens and GC holders - I urge you to take action NOW to protect yourselves.

Job performance, tenure, experience, role, contribution, and education DO NOT MATTER.

US Citizens, Over 40, with high family or individual “Medical Insurance Consumption” - YOUR RISKS ARE EVEN HIGHER

What can you do?

Voice your opinion and change the law. Urge Congress to support H-1B and L-1 Visa Reform.

Upcoming legislation will bar employers from replacing American workers with H-1B holders and ensure compliance with random audits.

Make sure you have least 6 months cash.

Know that you are not alone.

There is hope.

The IEEE has drawn a connection between the H-1B program and the unemployment rate for engineers.

For instance, in 2003, when the visa cap was still at 195,000, the unemployment rate for computer software engineers was measured at 5.2%.

But in November 2004, the IEEE said that unemployment among software engineers had shrunk to 3.3%, a decline it attributed to the lowering of the H-1B cap. http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Hiring%2FRecruiting&articleId=9131249&taxonomyId=57&pageNumber=2

Do not get caught off guard.

Trolls on this site have an agenda - they are trying to bully or distract people from understanding the crisis American tech workers face today because of corporate visa laws.

Look past their dismissive, misleading and derogatory statements that insinuate xenophobia or immigration.

Corporate visas are about hiring practices. NOT Immigration.

Interesting that we have not heard anything from these naysayers about hiring practices - and what Microsoft is doing to ensure that American workers get a fair chance to compete for jobs.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:34 PM
I take it from the Tancredo talk that we must be coming close to the truth.

Why not stick to an honest discussion? What do you gain by awkward and nonsensical attacks?

Unless, of course, you don't want to have an honest discussion.

In this case it appears that it is all about corruption and politics.

The Issues Behind the Abramoff Scandal Started in 1957

http://tiny.cc/mUZdw

It's not about immigration. The immigration argument is a red herring. The immigration argument, in fact, is partly how the corporations have manipulated our fears whether progressive or conservative though. I will give you that.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 10:40 PM
The H-1B Fraud Rate: Over 20%, Says USCIS

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-h-1b-fraud-rate-over-20-says-uscis-2009-2

We've written before about widespread abuse in the H-1B visa program, but now we have some hard figures to work with: There's fraud in over 20% of H-1B applications.
And no, these figures don't come from some advocacy group with an agenda. The "over 20%" figure is the findings of a newly surfaced report undertaken by the federal government's U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service.

For those just joining us, the H-1B program is a provision in U.S. immigration law which brings 65,000 educated workers (mostly tech guys from India) to the U.S. each year, with regulatory restrictions in place to ensure:

1. H-1Bs can only be hired for jobs where 'no qualified American can be found' and
2. H-1Bs must be paid market rates so as not to depress tech salaries.
Critics argue neither provision ever gets enforced, and in practice H-1Bs compete directly against American citizens at cut-rate prices, making life miserable for IT workers.

By Anonymous, at April 7, 2009 at 11:07 PM
Layoffs confirmed for April 22nd. Buckle your seat belts everyone and prepare for impact.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 6:54 AM
It's called competition, chief. If corporate America can hire someone to do what I do for half-price -- citizen or not -- then so be it, it's the system we live in.

When I posted previously, I thought to myself "I wonder if this person really thinks that they are the best possible candidate for their job?" I then wondered whether that was overconfidence or ignorance.

I can find quite a few people who could outperform you in your position, "chief". I don't even need to know you. If you've been so insulated that you really believe that hard work and talent are the sole contributors to success/failure, you still have some things to experience. Continue being that overconfident. You'll either end up as Microsoft Executive Management (you need to trod on more corpses first, though), or find yourself in a new 'phase' of your life. :)

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 7:54 AM
I take it from the Tancredo talk that we must be coming close to the truth.

Why not stick to an honest discussion? What do you gain by awkward and nonsensical attacks?

Coming close to truth? Far from it. I am merely handling irrational jingoism by use of counter-jingoism.

Statements claiming that Microsoft laid off 1400 US citizens and GC holders and retained H1 guest workers are hardly truthful. I personally know quite a few guest workers who were let go.

What we have here is one or two xenophobic deadbeats barfing their vile all over this place. Tom Tancredo is eager to work with them!

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 8:08 AM
Mr. Tancredo fan - rather than dismiss details about the MS1400 layoff as an awkward and nonsensical attack - provide details... Tell us the truth.

How many guest workers were laid off?

How many US citizens and GC holders were replaced with H-1b?

My 'permanently eliminated' job was replaced by an H-1b contracting company at a 50% pay cut.

50% pay cut in 3 weeks.

US citizens and GC holder employees, I urge you to understand the facts. I hope my experience can help other colleagues.

Mr. Trancredo - you know nothing about me, your bullying and dismissive remarks are not welcome nor appreciated.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 8:47 AM
My challenge -- and I've chosen to accept it -- it to make sure I remain competitive, and to make sure I stay ahead of whatever game is out there... be it the fact that I'm getting older and competing with younger workers, the fact that H-1Bs are flooding the country or the fact that my skills are always becoming obsolete if I'm not constantly improving them.

Chief. No matter how qualified you are, if you flood the market with other qualified foreigners, wages will go down. American people don't need to do this to themselves, esp. in a time of economic recession.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 9:32 AM
"I can find quite a few people who could outperform you in your position, "chief". I don't even need to know you. If you've been so insulated that you really believe that hard work and talent are the sole contributors to success/failure, you still have some things to experience."

LOL! Who ever said that "hard work and talent" were all you needed to compete in a Capitalist society or on the job market?

Have you worked at Microsoft all your life? Sounds like it. The rest of us who have lived outside the collective understand that competition comes from many different sources, and that "hard work and talent", while key ingredients for success, are hardly sufficient conditions for personal success. Luck, timing, job hunting savvy, understanding your value relative to your competition and convincing prospective employers that you're the best choice... all of this contributes to getting paid in modern America.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 10:43 AM
Have you worked at Microsoft all your life? Sounds like it. The rest of us who have lived outside the collective understand that competition comes from many different sources, and that "hard work and talent", while key ingredients for success, are hardly sufficient conditions for personal success. Luck, timing, job hunting savvy, understanding your value relative to your competition and convincing prospective employers that you're the best choice... all of this contributes to getting paid in modern America.

Oh, you poor deluded soul.

Son, I suspect I have more startups (worked at, and founded) under my belt than you have total employers.

However, believing that this industry functions primarily based on merit is an absurdity, and one I would not expect from anyone who has ever been employed elsewhere. The only people I've ever met who believe that are those who've had totally insular careers.

This is marginally cute. If you actually knew me and my background, you'd realize how far from reality your accusations are, and perhaps consider your statements a bit more before making them. :)

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 11:17 AM
"Oh, you poor deluded soul.

Son, I suspect I have more startups (worked at, and founded) under my belt than you have total employers.

However, believing that this industry functions primarily based on merit is an absurdity, and one I would not expect from anyone who has ever been employed elsewhere. The only people I've ever met who believe that are those who've had totally insular careers.

This is marginally cute. If you actually knew me and my background, you'd realize how far from reality your accusations are, and perhaps consider your statements a bit more before making them. :)"

Oh, do feel free to enlighten me... big anonymous internet man is a startup god, bitching about H-1Bs on the minimsft cutting room floor.

Yeah, and I bet you have a bridge to sell me. Just a hint for the future, Mr. Big -- those who actually are impressive do not need to tell people how impressive they are. You've pretty much identified yourself as a Dilbert with delusions of grandeur.

In any case, why do you insist on injecting merit into this discussion? I'm talking about understanding the competitive landscape and out-maneuvering your competition.

But really, I'm still waiting for the dramatic reveal of Who You Are...

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 11:42 AM
What is the agenda of the nasty bully who dismisses the impact of Corporate Visas on the American Workforce? Is this person

a. A paid lobbyist

b. A member of LCA or MIG (Microsoft Immigration Group)

c. An H-1B or L-1 visa holder

d. Someone young without first hand experience on the impact of corporate visas

e. A manager who drinks the koolaid experienced in laying off Americans and replacing them with guest workers - without remorse.

Microsoft employees are quite smart and once they know the reality can sift thru the bravado.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 12:19 PM
"What is the agenda of the nasty bully who dismisses the impact of Corporate Visas on the American Workforce? Is this person"

f. Someone who has perspective on the magnitude -- or utter lack thereof -- of the H-1B issue, and who thinks there are far, far bigger fish to fry than this. This issue is just so damn minor in the grand scheme, and it's only those who are easily whipped-up into foreign panic that are elevating it to DEFCON 1 status.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 12:46 PM
There are no atheists in foxholes and no H-1B believers in the unemployment line.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM
At 12:55 PM EDT today, April 8, 2009, MSFT traded at $19.57/sh. Neener, neener? : )

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 2:17 PM
"There are no atheists in foxholes and no H-1B believers in the unemployment line."

gods and devils of convenience. ;-)

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 3:42 PM
Oh, do feel free to enlighten me... big anonymous internet man is a startup god, bitching about H-1Bs on the minimsft cutting room floor.

Do I need to find a link on 'Argumentative Fallacies' on Wikipedia and send it to you? You're sticking to the same few. Widen your scope a bit. You don't need 'Ad Hominem' again so soon.

My comments on having worked at startups was - to the effect - that I suspect that I've worked at more startups than you've had total employers. This was in response to you claiming that I must be a lifetime Microsoft employee who didn't know the "real world". I was responding to an attack on my character, not boasting.

The verb 'bitching' seems more appropriate to the spitting, angry tantrums you post.

While we're at it, if you feel the urge to belittle the forum as in the quote above, could you explain why you've chosen to share your wisdom with the rest of us here?

I'm gaining a recognition that I'm trying to debate something with someone who behaves like a twelve-year-old, who can't justify any issues with logical, sensible points, but resorts to vulgarity when pressed.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 5:16 PM
f. Someone who has perspective

Right. The same person who was angry when someone else dared use the word "our", because they felt that anothers values were being imposed upon them.

The same person who is trying to shove his opinion down everyone else's throats, and doesn't seem to recognize the strange irony of the situation.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 5:23 PM
The few people who are dominating this discussion really need to get a room...

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 8:10 PM
Throat-punching guy, paging the throat-punching guy....

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 8:12 PM
Mr. Tancredo fan - rather than dismiss details about the MS1400 layoff as an awkward and nonsensical attack - provide details... Tell us the truth.

Yo! Tom Tancredo called. You gonna love him!! Tom Tancredo says no to guest worker program, says it creates second class citizens.

He also believes that our society is intoxicated with multiculturalism. So it's all good if you are of Italian ancestry. Or else watch out!!

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Any American citizens / GC holders affected by this news?

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/165970.asp?from=blog_last3

Microsoft to outsource tech services to Indian company

Indian IT services provider HCL Technologies appears to have signed a five-year, $170 million contract with Microsoft that would employ 600 people, according to a report in the Economic Times.

HCL will provide technology services for Microsoft's online services business, the Times reported, citing "a person familiar with the negotiations."

That Microsoft, a major global company, would outsource some of its contract work to an overseas provider such as HCL is not really a surprise.

But, the report comes in the midst of layoffs and contractor pay cuts at Microsoft.

A Microsoft spokesman did not return a phone call seeking comment or confirmation of the report.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Layoffs confirmed for April 22nd. Buckle your seat belts everyone and prepare for impact

=======
true

COSD wave 2
SE wave 4
MSN Wave 5

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 9:16 PM
US Citizens and GC holders - some tips on what to expect in the layoff
- Expect high pressure tactics to sign termination agreements.
- Do not sign termination agreements without showing them to an attorney.
- Microsoft termination agreements are onerous and require you waive your rights to free speech and due process.
- Make sure you have an emergency fund of 6 months cash

MS1400

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 10:45 PM
> Uh, Skippy, I'm the guy who called my fellow 'murcans lazy and fat -- I was born and raised in West Virginia from good blue collar Irish stock, thank you very much.

Bob S., I presume?
Crawl back in your hole now.

By Anonymous, at April 8, 2009 at 11:50 PM
"US Citizens and GC holders - some tips on what to expect in the layoff
- Expect high pressure tactics to sign termination agreements.
- Do not sign termination agreements without showing them to an attorney.
- Microsoft termination agreements are onerous and require you waive your rights to free speech and due process.
- Make sure you have an emergency fund of 6 months cash

MS1400"

blah blah whiny bitch blah

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 3:12 AM
Mr. Blah, Blah,

Methinks He Doth Protest Too Much

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 8:42 AM
Americanworker.org video on layoffs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-hp5vuQabY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamericanworker%2Eorg%2F&feature=player_embedded

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 8:53 AM
US Citizens and GC holders who are not a complete failure as a software professional - some tips on what to expect in the layoff
-Expect to easily find a new job.

MS1400 who was promptly rehired

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 8:56 AM
blah blah whiny bitch blah

How very constructive.

If the Universe had any inherent sense of balance, the people posting here who are completely confident that layoffs could not possibly include them because "_insert_rationale_here_" would be in the next wave.

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 9:10 AM
"If the Universe had any inherent sense of balance, the people posting here who are completely confident that layoffs could not possibly include them because "_insert_rationale_here_" would be in the next wave."

I haven't seen anyone say they were immune to layoffs.

I have seen, however, statements like "if the layoffs come for me, I will handle it without blaming H-1Bs for my circumstances."

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 9:47 AM
H-1 holders should have their documentation when passing through a port of entry.

I returned from India and the inspector questioned the validity of my H-1 given the layoffs. I was told that future entries may make me subject to deportation.

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 11:55 AM
With today's close at $19.67 it's official: "Neener, neener."

And 1967 was a damn good year, I might add.

Now if all you indentured servants would get back to work we might see 20-something soon.

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 1:48 PM
I haven't seen anyone say they were immune to layoffs.

I have seen, however, statements like "if the layoffs come for me, I will handle it without blaming H-1Bs for my circumstances."

When you say 'H-1Bs', do you mean the work Visas themselves, or the individuals using the Visas to gain employment inside this country?

I read posts and half of the people seem to read'H-1B' as one thing and the other half seem to read it as another. I wish people would use two separate terms that are clear.

I'm sure some group is intentionally being vague to suit their purpose ...

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 9:11 PM
"When you say 'H-1Bs', do you mean the work Visas themselves"

Yes, as it's the way the program is purportedly taken advantage of by corporations that people seem to object to.

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 9:17 PM
"I read posts and half of the people seem to read'H-1B' as one thing and the other half seem to read it as another. I wish people would use two separate terms that are clear."

Yes, half of the people -- the bigots -- use the term "H-1B" as a euphemism for "Filthy Indians". :P

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 9:19 PM
Americanworker.org video on layoffs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-hp5vuQabY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamericanworker%2Eorg%2F&feature=player_embedded

Yo! Tom Tancredo called. Like you, he also hates immigrants. He believes there is no benefit from immigration; annual $70B loss.

Dang it with people like Sergey Brin coming to US and founding billion dollar businesses. What's with that?!

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 10:13 PM
The problem - the H-1B corporate visa PROGRAM
Not the problem - Guest workers

Since the Corporate Visa Program was designed for and by Corporations, it contains major loopholes that benefit Corporations, not citizens.

Because of these loopholes, it is LEGAL for US employers to:
1. Layoff US citizens and GC holders and retain guest workers
2. Exclusively recruit abroad for US jobs in the US, bypassing US citizens and GC holders.

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Prologue:
BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARKBARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK

Chapter 1:
The problem - the H-1B corporate visa PROGRAM
Not the problem - Guest workers ... BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK

Epilog:
BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARKBARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 10:36 PM
BARK - I think you don't give the readers of this blog enough credit.

Do you think your disrespectful and divisive comments distract other readers from uncovering the facts about corporate visas and drawing their own conclusions?

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 11:20 PM
The Greedy Gates Immigration Gambit
Fall 2007 (Published in January 2008)

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/pdf/eighteen-one/tsc_18_1_nelson.pdf

(Microsoft employed "The best and brightest" lobbyist, Jack Abramoff in 1994 to help procure three employer-friendly changes to H-1B Visa legislation in 1996, 1998, and 2000. Lobbyist (and felon) Jack Abramoff worked with Team Abramoff to help Microsoft direct the flow of about $100 million in political expenditures between 1995-2000.)

By Anonymous, at April 9, 2009 at 11:36 PM
Anonymous at 10:45pm, thanks for trying to be informative. Any of you who made it through the dot-com bust years without your first layoff, he makes a good point about not jumping on the severance agreement until a lawyer has given it a thoughtful review. Note that in my case, it took spending $$ on two attorneys before I found the one who had some interesting comments about its ramifications beyond the "it's fairly typical" rubber stamp of the first.

I didn't sign away my free speech right for the offered $10,000 in after-tax severance for a low-ish level, several year employee. It's not that I had anything in particular to say, as I'm a bit too professional to "squawk" as a matter of principle. But I didn't care for that restriction and others in exchange for what I saw as too few dollars, particularly because I worked for a legally-sensitive project. There's only so much dirty linen a reasonable person will agree to hide or politely gloss over, if asked about it directly by lawyers, in exchange for 10K. I didn't want to put myself in the position of having to do that, putting my personal credibility at risk, possibly publicly, for such a sum. It just seemed that little good could come out of it.

Others may be more desperate for 10K than I was, or in different situations, and will make their own decisions.

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 11:03 AM
Microsoft Severance Agreement – Highlights

“I agree to release (i.e. give up) all known and unknown claims that I currently have against Microsoft, its officers, directors, subsidiaries, affiliates, agents and/or employees (collectively referred to as the “Released Parties”) except claims that the law does not permit me to waive”…

I understand and agree that this release includes but not limited to any and all claims or causes of action arising under any federal state local or foreign laws relating to:

Employment discrimination

Employment or termination rights and/or benefits (including Employee
Retirement Income Security)

Notice of employment termination or to severance pay (including the Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification Act)

In addition, in the event I am rehired by Microsoft within the number of weeks equal to the weeks of severance pay I received, I agree to repay, as a condition of rehire, all severance pay received.

I agree that Microsoft shall have the right to withhold the following from any severance payment

I also agree not to make disparaging or derogatory statements about Microsoft or its officers or directors.

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 12:56 PM
BARK - I think you don't give the readers of this blog enough credit.

Oh, I dunno about that. I'd say he has your number pretty well.

Bark away, curs.

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Others may be more desperate for 10K than I was, or in different situations, and will make their own decisions.

nope, I don't know anything worth spouting off about. So keeping my mouth shut about nothing interesting was worth $32k after taxes. ch-ching! cya! sorry 'bout your widdle biddy severance and high impo'tant morals and such!

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 7:26 PM
Sergey Brin was not here on H-1B, douchebag.

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 7:29 PM
Actually this comment is worth exploring. Any of you guest workers here thinking you are the next Sergey Brin or wanting anybody to kiss your ass because you work in computers and are from another country (just like s-s-s-sergey!) need to wake up.

For one thing Sergey and Larry started their own business, didn't come to the US to be an H-1B wage-slave. For another they were already on their way during college. You guys have missed the boat on that whole plan. And as a visa holder you cannot quit and start your own company.

So if you want to worship at Sergey's feet, you need to quit your job (move back to home country unfortunately) and start a business for your damn self. Sergey, Larry, Steve, Bill, Steve, all of them were too good to work for another person. Thus all of them are better than you. Or I.

Let's just put that out in the open here. You will never have the respect of a Bill Gates by the sad fact that you accepted the yoke of corporate ownership. Now go punch out some code you cogs!

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 7:42 PM
"Do you think your disrespectful and divisive comments distract other readers from uncovering the facts about corporate visas and drawing their own conclusions?"

Considering that there has not been a single unbiased point of view presented here, and considering that virtually all of us -- myself included -- are wasting time wallowing at the slop trough when we could be doing better things -- I'd say "Bark" has it pretty much exactly right.

Eat your slop, hog. That's what this place is about.

By Anonymous, at April 10, 2009 at 8:03 PM
I also agree not to make disparaging or derogatory statements about Microsoft or its officers or directors.

If this is really in the severance agreement that has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read. Talk about a bunch of pansies.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 9:57 AM
H-1 holders should have their documentation when passing through a port of entry.

I returned from India and the inspector questioned the validity of my H-1 given the layoffs. I was told that future entries may make me subject to deportation.

Yes! The Immigration and Nationality Act states:

(i) In general.-Any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that-

(I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified (or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor.

and admission to the United States is where you present your visa and get an I-94 in return.

We may be able to get rid of these H-1 curry munching bastards after all.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 11:48 AM
First it was cubes instead of offices, then it was assignment of cubes/offices without regard to seniority, and then stuffing 5000 people into an already way too overcrowded area (we're told we asked for this), and now it's bye-bye to the bar.

http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_cancels_plans_for_on-campus_pub__42823757.html

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 11:54 AM
First it was cubes instead of offices, then it was assignment of cubes/offices without regard to seniority, and then stuffing 5000 people into an already way too overcrowded area (we're told we asked for this), and now it's bye-bye to the bar.

http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_cancels_plans_for_on-campus_pub__42823757.html

Good! When will they get rid of Eurest?

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 12:33 PM
Oh you poor thing. I wonder if you'd get better treatment if you could provide some ROI, you E&D primmadonna prick. Be happy you have a job.

-ms1400

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 12:39 PM
"We may be able to get rid of these H-1 curry munching bastards after all."

I hope you die from a painful, lingering cancer -- you bigoted fuck. You are the very worst of America, and if I could sentence you to life in the slums of Calcutta I would do it in a heartbeat.

Seriously, just die you piece of dogshit.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Microsoft Management - Your "Greed is Good" actions illuminate how out of touch you are with reality.

An “economic recovery” with bridges to nowhere thanks to taxpayers?

A pub for the over-privileged, best and brightest?

Continuing free sodas while slashing jobs?

The cost of any one of these programs could have saved 1400 jobs Jan 22, 2009.

Did the thought ever occur to you to invest in the community? Create AMERICAN jobs?

You are no better than AIG -

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Did the thought ever occur to you to invest in the community? Create AMERICAN jobs?

Fuck America.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 1:36 PM
America - love it or leave it.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 2:51 PM
"America - love it or leave it."

You people always bring it down to a choice -- either be a nationalistic I LOVE AMERICA zombie, or leave.

Well, no.

I'm not a fan of America, although born-and-raised -- actually I think our country is frequently a steaming pile of dung, and people like you -- the nationalistic douchebags -- are largely responsible. Religious nutbags don't often help, but most of you xenophobes are also included in those cults.

Y'all are the enemies of the true America -- religious zealots and nationalistic douches. Without you our country would be *awesome*.

There are benefits that keep me here even though I'm forced to deal with the fallout of your brainwashing -- life in America isn't bad for me personally, and so I'll stay for now thanks.

But make no mistake: you people pollute this country far, far more than any H-1b ever will.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 3:08 PM
An “economic recovery” with bridges to nowhere thanks to taxpayers?

It's public infrastructure douchebag.

A pub for the over-privileged, best and brightest?

Douchebags are ineligible to enter.

Continuing free sodas while slashing jobs?

The cost of any one of these programs could have saved 1400 jobs Jan 22, 2009.

Free sodas saving 1400 jobs? Yeah, right douchebag.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 4:52 PM
A pub for the over-privileged, best and brightest?

Continuing free sodas while slashing jobs?

The cost of any one of these programs could have saved 1400 jobs Jan 22, 2009.

When you see all the racist hatred above, you cant help wonder that some good happened on Jan 22. I for one am very glad that the xenophobic ass whining about all that visa-worker shit got kicked out. I'll go drink my next free pop to that!

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 5:05 PM
"America - love it or leave it."

You people always bring it down to a choice -- either be a nationalistic I LOVE AMERICA zombie, or leave.

I agree with you, but that poster was responding to "Fuck America." (it wasn't out of the blue).

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 5:15 PM
I for one am very glad that the xenophobic ass whining about all that visa-worker shit got kicked out.

What happened? I think I missed something. Who was kicked out? When? What happened?

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 5:19 PM
=======
true

COSD wave 2
SE wave 4
MSN Wave 5

What about wave 3 ?
So i guess wave 2 of layoffs is April 22 , is it ? Its time to cleanse microsoft again, of those arrogant jerks (oh google too is full of such characters now ... as though there is some space age work going on) ... :)

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 8:10 PM
"I for one am very glad that the xenophobic ass whining about all that visa-worker shit got kicked out."

What happened? I think I missed something. Who was kicked out? When? What happened?

I believe the OP is saying that the people spouting racist goo here are likely among the 1400 who were laid-off, and he's happy they're no longer at Microsoft.

By Anonymous, at April 11, 2009 at 8:48 PM
and I believe the response was designed to indicate that the so-called xenophobic comments are from folks currently employed by Microsoft.

And very disingenius of all of you who continue to ignore the H-1B discussion as related to hiring practices and insist it is rooted in xenophobia. What, did you run out of logic for your arguments and are left with namecalling?

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 12:51 AM
"And very disingenius of all of you who continue to ignore the H-1B discussion as related to hiring practices and insist it is rooted in xenophobia. What, did you run out of logic for your arguments and are left with namecalling?"

I'm sure the people shouting "get those curry munching bastards" (one of the lovely direct quotes from earlier in this thread) are purely about the program and not the people.

Get real, please. There are legitimate concernes about how corporations use H-1bs, but most of what we're seeing here is bigotry and misplaced anger and pitchforks against Indian workers.

Until you can silence the people shouting racial epithets in the same breath they're discussing H-1B issues, you should refrain from throwing stones at those who call people out on their bigotry.

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 3:43 AM
I see a lot of people claiming there is a plentiful supply of talented people in America. Speaking from personal experience (I'm not an American, I can easily get a non-green-card-eligible work visa there, but I have no interest in doing so. I regularly interview applicants for US-based technical positions for my employer) nothing could be further from the truth.

It was always really difficult to find people of sufficiently high level to employ. The H1B limits rankled because there were many incredibly talented people with non-US passports, many of whom had degrees from US universities who we couldn't employ. In contrast, it was a lot easier to interview US candidates but they pretty uniformly didn't make the bar. Even after all these recent layoffs 'freed up' so much talent.

My employer has zero interest in hiring cheaply simply because of how difficult it is to find anyone who qualifies and how much damage hiring incompetent people can cause. We'd rather not have a third of our organisation dedicated to policing the others to make sure they're doing their job.

I don't work for Microsoft, though, and it seems as if this was a lesson about hiring they failed to learn quite a few years ago, leading to Mini's point about corporate fat.

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 5:09 AM
Get real, please. There are legitimate concernes about how corporations use H-1bs, but most of what we're seeing here is bigotry and misplaced anger and pitchforks against Indian workers.

I read the comments, and have read some nasty things said. (That 'curry' comment was pretty extreme.)

At the same time, I've heard more than one voice claiming that they were opposed to corporate actions, not the individuals.

But there isn't a response from the opposing point-of-view. I've read "this is a red-herring", which is, unfortunately, about the limit of detail to the 'other side' of the argument.

Could the person who posted that expound on it? Your side of the argument so far reads as just calling anyone who doesn't agree with them names. Convince everyone else, and give your argument. Calmly. Without insult. Without name-calling.

Please. Some would like to hear both sides, but feel like we're hearing only one side and just fury from the other side.

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 11:24 AM
I see a lot of people claiming there is a plentiful supply of talented people in America. Speaking from personal experience (I'm not an American, I can easily get a non-green-card-eligible work visa there, but I have no interest in doing so. I regularly interview applicants for US-based technical positions for my employer) nothing could be further from the truth.

Where are you located?

There is dead weight among American workers. There is dead weight everywhere, among all workers.

There are more people in the computer/electronics business here than just 'talent'. The low skilled are there too, and if they can't scrape by using politics, they'll try something else.

I'm wondering: If its out-of-the-country, do your applicants represent most American talent, or only those who either want to move to a new country and have a new experience, as well as, unfortunately, those who simply can't survive in this business at home?

(Not saying that it is or isn't. I'm asking if this is possible?)

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 11:36 AM
Don't fall into the trap.. I politely and strongly disagree with the H-1B recruiter who claims that it is hard to find qualified American workers. This person's statements are full of half-truths.

Check out this training video for H-1B employers
from Cohen & Grigsby, an immigration law firm, on how to navigate loopholes in corporate visa legislation to deliberately avoid hiring qualified American job candidates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 11:46 AM
Don't fall into the trap.. I politely and strongly disagree with the H-1B recruiter who claims that it is hard to find qualified American workers. This person's statements are full of half-truths.

I appreciate your comments, and did watch the .. inflammatory .. video on YouTube you posted.

However, I still want to hear the response from those that disagree with you. Until they have an opportunity to respond with their point-of-view, I withhold judgment.

(By point-of-view, I mean a real one, not attacking the video, attacking the posters, calling people names. I want to hear their thoughtful, detailed opinions. If none appear, I guess I will have to assume that they have none, or the right people aren't here to post.)

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 12:18 PM
To Anonymous, at 9:57 AM who asked about the language of the severance agreement:

Yes, the following text really is in the severance package.

I also agree not to make disparaging or derogatory statements about Microsoft or its officers or directors.

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Get real, please. There are legitimate concernes about how corporations use H-1bs, but most of what we're seeing here is bigotry and misplaced anger and pitchforks against Indian workers.

I see legitimate debate from both sides being obfuscated by non-msft trolls spamming the board with racist comments, and a hell of a lot of you taking the bait. It's like you've never been on the intardwebs before. No wonder you always fail in online.

Divide and conquer, turn your enemy upon themselves, attack them in their disorganized state, the effing penguin fzckers don't even have to spend any money to fill you with hatred towards your fellow workers.

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 12:29 PM
non-msft trolls spamming the board with racist comments

Never seen the insidems site at its worst, have you? Read the comments for the latest post and see if you still believe in the quality of the msft community.

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Here's a book that Microsoft's top management is apparently unaware of:

MSNBC: "'The Peter Principle' is ageless as it turns 40"

By Anonymous, at April 12, 2009 at 1:23 PM

Mini-Microsoft Cutting Room Floor

Sunday, March 29, 2009

Comment Stream - Shared Sacrifice and Microsoft Free Radicals

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