Mini-Microsoft Cutting Room Floor

Wednesday, May 06, 2009

Light fuse - New comment on Microsoft Layoffs - Cinco de Fire-O.

Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Microsoft Layoffs - Cinco de Fire-O":

Fellow laid off Microsoft workers over 50 - thought this might be helpful.

The Supposed Immigrant Talent
http://groups. group/ProgrammersGuild/files/ Supposed- immigrant-talent.txt

We keep seeing several articles, by people like Vivek Wadhwa, talking about the innovative qualities of immigrants or guest workers coming here from other countries and pointing to YAHOO and GOOGLE as the perfect examples. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is a fallacy.

Yahoo was started by David Filo born in Wisconsin, educated at Stanford and Jerry Yang, born in Taipei, raised in San Jose since age 8, educated in the USA at Stanford.

Google was started by Larry Page, born in Michigan, educated at Stanford and Sergey Brin, born in Moscow, raised in the USA since age 6, post graduate work at Stanford.

So what we see is that they were not educated at some diploma factory in India, China or Russia, instead they received their education here in the United States; since elementary school even. They studied Computer Science or Math or Electrical Engineering in US colleges and Stanford is the common factor...

Do we see a pattern here? All these technology companies were founded by persons born and educated or raised and educated here in the United States; not India, not mainland China, not Russia.

Just because they hired a bunch of kids from India in order to replace their aging work force and suppress wages in the late 90's and early in this decade, doesn't mean squat....

Now India pumps out Engineers fast as India's unsustainable population explosion but does that make them more innovative, more intelligent, more motivated? Hardly, just more populous.

As for actual studies, one was reported in 1996 that shows that of 250 randomly sampled patents registered between 1988 and 1994, 48 were issued to foreign born inventors; however these inventors were educated in the United States. Of the sample shown, most immigrated from Europe and the Far East (China, Korea); 3 from India.
To Vivek:

Let's see now Mr. Wadhwa, who are the most innovative of this planet's population?

Yes, immigrants can be or are highly motivated innovators, but so are citizens of the United States.

This country created the technology wave and people like yourselves with your charged rhetoric have simply been riding it.

When is the last time you heard of a citizen of the United States stealing industrial secrets from China or India? NEVER! Yet there are many instances of this occurring here in the US by foreign nationals.

Your paper on immigrant entrepreneurs failed to ask several other pertinent questions:

In what country were you raised the majority of your life? In what country did you get the majority of your education?In what country did you get your advance degree?

These are relevant questions and the absence of them in your paper is indicative of a seriously flawed and biased study meant to skew our perception rather than enlighten it.

I agree on the need for this country to make room for the best and the brightest, but I also believe that the rest of the world needs them as well and if we are to create and perpetuate economic, social and political equality around the world you can't be creating inequality here in the most free and equal of countries on the planet, the United States.

Allowing international corporate and industrial conglomerates to shift working populations and economic disparity around the world for the purpose of profit without consideration of the consequence is unreasonable, unhealthy and irresponsible.

Using racist rhetoric, such as you have in the past, to make your skewed point is just as irresponsible. Are you a mouth-piece for opportunity or for corporate imperialism?

What I am is a fifty(50) year old software engineer with twenty-five( 25) years progressive experience in the science of Information Technology that has been ejected from American labor force by cheap, under-educated, youthful labor; brought here solely for the purpose of breaking the economic back of middle class Americans.

The non-immigrant guest worker program in this country is seriously flawed and needs to be fixed; period.

(…and step back)


  • You do realize foreigners with American degrees need H1-B's to work here right?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 6, 2009 at 9:28 PM  

  • It is true that corporate America is breaking the back of middle class America by flooding the market with foreigners (of all races, this is not a race thing).

    Why would anyone hire a 50 year old if they can hire a cheaper 25 year old from China/India/Europe?

    This visa thing has gotta stop, esp in a time of recession when companies are laying off in massive numbers. Americans, please write to your Congressman.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 6, 2009 at 10:40 PM  

  • The analysis of entrepreneurial engineers in the emerging markets Vs those in the US is invalid if you do not consider the lack of opportunities, amenities, funding, guidance, systems, rules, rights, etc that the people in emerging countries have encountered in the past and even do today. The author of the original post about needs to learn more about the world around him/her.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 6, 2009 at 10:50 PM  

  • The original poster also needs to note on more thing - H1B foreign workers in the US are not allowed to start and own businesses on their own unless they become permanent residents of the US.

    If you are a foreigner, you can become a permanent resident only if you already have a relative who is a US citizen, or if your company is willing to sponsor your green card, or if you win the lottery, or if you claim asylum, or if you have lived in the US since 1971.

    Most foreign workers who work with Microsoft apply for permanent residence through the Microsoft's sponsorship.

    However, the US government takes between 3 to 8 years to process permanent residence. During this period, the foreign worker is not allowed to change jobs, change companies, or change responsibilities without jeopardizing his/her prospects of getting the green card. Hence such employees have a disincentive to go way beyond what they were originally hired to do. Several illegal immigrants from Mexico and Eastern Europe get permanent residence significantly sooner than legal immigrants from China, India and Mexico.

    In addition, the H1B worker must leave the country on the same day as he/she is fired or laid off. Hence the system creates obedient H1B workers who not only stymie their creative talents, but also obediently comply with close to slavish treatment from their company.

    If foreign H1B workers were given the right to switch jobs, get promotions, start businesses, and demand for higher pay without having to fly out on the day they get fired/laid-off, corporations would not be able to underpay and overwork them in slavishly uncreative jobs that they work on evenings and weekends too.

    Through ad-homeniem attacks against the H1B workers, you are attacking the "already oppressed". You should be voicing your protest against the exploitation of the foreign workers, because such exploitation works against you too. By attacking the foreign workers, you have only created an enemy, not an ally who would help protect the jobs you have.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 6, 2009 at 11:04 PM  

  • Laid off Microsoft workers and American citizens

    Senator Dick Durbin (Majority Whip) just introduced a new bill, the H-1B and L-1 Visa Reform Act of 2009 to fix loopholes in Corporate work visas that led to your layoffs.

    This bill has teeth. In fact, the opposition, the corporate consortia of the world's largest guest worker employers, Compete America ( stated, “We agree with Senators Durbin and Grassley that hiring U.S. workers should be a priority.

    Write your elected officials and urge them to support S.887 H-1B and L-1 Visa Reform Act of 2009.

    Washington State Senators have 'conflicting' interests, might be helpful to remind them that they were elected for the people and by the people - not "buy Corporate greed"

    Maria Cantwell
    Patty Murray


Some more details from Senator Durbin on the bill
    - Congress created the H-1B visa program so an employer could hire a foreign guest-worker when a qualified American worker could not be found.
    - However, the H-1B visa program is plagued with fraud and abuse and is now a vehicle for outsourcing that deprives qualified American workers of their jobs.

    - Our bill will put a stop to the outsourcing of American jobs and discrimination against American workers.”


    While initially successful, loopholes in the program have allowed foreign guest-workers to displace qualified American workers. 

    Some claim that the H-1B program helps to create American jobs, but it is currently being used by some companies to outsource American jobs to foreign countries.

    Under current law, an outsourcing company can use American workers to train H-1B guest-workers, fire the American workers and outsource the H-1B workers to a foreign country where they will do the same job for a much lower wage.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 7, 2009 at 9:15 AM  

  • This visa thing has gotta stop, esp in a time of recession when companies are laying off in massive numbers. Americans, please write to your Congressman.Who do you think makes huge donations to your Congressman? The companies that bring in the foreign labor and not only get visas for onshoring, but tax breaks when they offshore in the name of "international development."

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 7, 2009 at 12:02 PM  

  • I lived in US for almost ten years - worked in Software (yeah in H1B) ... Let me comment on few things:
    1. Economy has an in-built equalizing power. Developed economy will attract immigrants and law will just provide the ticket. That's exactly why you guys fail to stop illegal immigrants flowing in through southern borders. And go to California ... you will see most of the plantations and agricultural work (and construction too) are done by those poor people.
    2. I do agree that education system in US is better than engineering pumping factory in India. However when you give patent example, it's not fair because developing countries like India has many other problems. And guess what ... in today's hi-tech world, to innovate anything, you need capital which is controlled by Wall Street. So guess what ... patents do born in US.
    3. VISA Numbers: If we all are proud of the achievement of WinTel or internet explosion, H1B workers (with their limited capabiliies) did serve for the larger cause. It won't be fair to suddenly ignore and sacrifice them because of recession (which is really NOT their fault).
    My 2 cents :)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 7, 2009 at 1:37 PM  

  • I lived in US for almost ten years - worked in Software (yeah in H1B) ... Let me comment on few things:.

    Sensible comment. Much better than those fools that come in here and sing India's praises but are scared to death to go back and live there.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 7, 2009 at 10:01 PM  

  • Eco decline is automatically shrinking H1B demands. 2009 is the first year after a while when H1B cap was not reached. also shift of the capital in next few years will help the decline, which is already underway for china (lesser extent for india). microsoft would have helped it better by building more campuses in india, unfortunately both billg and steveb are reluctant in expanding there, they would rather bring ppl all the way to US, causing discomfort to local population. i would suggest microsoft should at least expand in vancouver, bc, so foreigners don't have to work in US.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 7, 2009 at 10:30 PM  

  • Napolitano increasing H-1B enforcement

    May 7, 2009 (Computerworld) WASHINGTON -- U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told a congressional committee that ensuring that U.S. workers have jobs is one of her "top obligations," and she said that her agency is stepping up its enforcement of the H-1B program.

    Napolitano said that over the last month the department has added fraud prevention tactics that weren't being used previously in the H-1B program. Those measures include visits to work sites.

    "We're going to keep at this to make sure that the intent of that program is fulfilled," she said at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing Wednesday.

    Napolitano was responding to a question from Sen. Richard Durbin (D-Ill.), who, along with Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), has introduced legislation called the H-1B Visa Fraud and Abuse Protections Act (S.887). The 37-page reform bill includes a number of restrictions and enforcement provisions, including audits of employers.

    Durbin talked about abuses in the H-1B program but also cited "a very serious concern" that "many of these H-1B holders are going to displace American workers or be placed in positions where unemployed American workers might otherwise have an opportunity."

    In response, Napolitano said that "our top obligations are to American workers, making sure American workers have jobs."

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 8, 2009 at 12:32 AM  

  • To the author of this post: Do you feel discriminated ? Clearly you do. Well, you just got a bit of taste of your own chocolate. Lucky you that this new 'experience' came about more than fifty years after you were born. For many others in society they have to live with this type of 'experiences' every day -literally - since they are born. I can only hope you learn the meaning of the word EMPATHY , rather than whining about the life, work and luck of foreigners around you.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 8, 2009 at 9:49 AM  

  • Yeaaah.. lets run em HB1 curry folks outa here. These immigrants aint up to no good. All these H1 guys do is bring H1N1 flu. Y'all need to git on the phone right now and call Grassley and Durbin.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 8, 2009 at 6:34 PM  

  • Yeaaah.. lets run em HB1 curry folks outa here. These immigrants aint up to no good. All these H1 guys do is bring H1N1 flu. Y'all need to git on the phone right now and call Grassley and Durbin.Posted by a bottom 10%'er.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 9, 2009 at 10:54 AM  

  • You should be voicing your protest against the exploitation of the foreign workersThe government should make sure these people only work 40 hours per week as described on their labor condition application. 2 H-1 holders working 60 hours a week is displacing a US citizen/LPR, and this needs to be stopped.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 9, 2009 at 11:19 AM  

  • Guest workers - American citizens need your support too.. Please end the myth and let colleagues back home know the truth:

    YOU ARE TAKING AWAY JOBS from American citizens.

    Guest workers - we know that you understand discrimination and unfair practices. You are here to make a better life for yourself - so are we.

    Please join us in partnership - fixing corporate visa loopholes helps both guest workers and American citizens. Unscrupulous employers will not be able to charge you for these visas, and the laws will ensure that you earn fair market wages for your jobs.

    The guest worker program is plagued with fraud and you too are a victim of greedy corporations.

    The feds are cracking down on H-1B fraud. You need to report violations in LCA conditions to the UCIS, DOL, or DOJ.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 9, 2009 at 1:17 PM  

  • To 1:17PM

    Well said.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 9, 2009 at 2:10 PM  

  • The original post uses false logic. The examples of big company founders proved they are good businessman, as someone else said with an H1B visa you cannot start you own business. To come with an H1B visa you need to prove you are a good engineer and not a good businessman.

    We cannot compare oranges with apples.

    Second you need to look at the problem in a different way. USA and some international and global(ization) organizations put a lot of pressure on some countries to screw their economies so they can become colonies.

    Therefore talented people usually have no chance in their own country. This way USA gets a lot of talented people for free, while the countries of origin loose talented people, thus the gap between rich and poor countries widens and creates even more problems.

    Given a chance for a decent life many immigrants will choose to stay in their countries but that does not happen because big US corporations screw up other countries economies to make easy money.

    The problem is very complex and it is far from having a simple solution.

    I understand the frustration of the American workers but it is not the fault of the honest legal immigrant that the Americans are finding themselves out of work.

    As usually in the history, the guy that is different meaning the immigrant is at fault because some citizens loose their jobs.

    It is not the fault of big banks or corporations for screwing up the mortgage industry or credit card, or Enron, etc. it is the foreigner even if this foreigner is honest, obeys the laws and work hard.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 12, 2009 at 11:43 AM  

  • Mr. H-1B Entrepreneur, I know you think you're the smartest guy in the room but you are wrong.

    Under US law it is ILLEGAL for guest workers to start their own businesses.

    To start your own business, kindly leave now and go back to your home country.

    Tell your H-1B friends back home that like you, they are taking jobs away from thousands of extremely well qualified and talented American citizens available who are ready, willing, and able to work today.

    The feds are cracking down on guest worker abuse. I'm sure your over-inflated ego ideas on how to steal jobs from Americans will get their attention.

    The FBI just shut down the DC H-1B firm working with the newly appointed Obama CTO.

    Please go home. Now.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 12, 2009 at 2:30 PM  

  • Mr. Guest Worker -

    YOU and other Guest workers ARE TAKING JOBS from qualified American citizens.

    YOU want a better life in our country - SO DO AMERICAN CITIZENS.

    In today's economy, corporate visas are a Win/Loose

    You win a job and a better life. AMERICANS loose our careers, homes, and health insurance.

    We've paid our dues and our taxes so YOU and YOUR family can benefit from our hard work and determination.

    Do you like our schools and universities?
    Do you like our roads and infrastructure?
    Do you like our legal system and lifestyle?
    Thank an American taxpayer.

    Certainly your home country wouldn't surrender all jobs to outsiders in a time of crisis. This is a time of crisis.

    It is a LIE that qualified American citizens are not available.

    I ask all American citizens to act and tell your friends to act... Please tell your elected officials to pass H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Reform act of 2009...

    America - for the people, by the people. Not BUY Microsoft.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 12, 2009 at 2:47 PM  

  • Mr. Guest Worker -

    YOU and other Guest workers ARE TAKING JOBS from qualified American citizens.
    Mr. American Citizen, bad luck for you, in a few years I will be a citizen as well.

    America - for the people, by the people. Not BUY Microsoft.
    Then what?
    Which people? The First Nations?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 12, 2009 at 5:20 PM  

  • Interesting thread on H-1B and L-1 fraud and abuse in today's Business Week, Take a look at what the rest of America has to say:

    Guest Workers - Things may get very ugly. Consider going home before more Americans lose their jobs to guest workers.

    Americans - We need to act before more people loose their jobs. Urge your elected officials to pass laws to end H-1B and L-1 visa fraud and abuse.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 12, 2009 at 5:51 PM  

  • To the Smartest Guest Worker in the Room and/or TROLL insulting Americans

    It is obvious that you do not have respect for American citizens, law or history.

    Maybe the feds will shut your visa application down before you even get a chance to show them how smart you are.

    Shut up and go home.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 12, 2009 at 5:56 PM  

  • Do you like our schools and universities?
    Do you like our roads and infrastructure?
    Do you like our legal system and lifestyle?
    Thank an American taxpayer.
    All H1-B folks are taxpayers. All H1-B folks contribute to the social security funds and most of them go back to their countries and never claim back any social security money.
    So, Thank H1-B folks for taking care of your grandparents and you when you grow up(hopefully you will) Moron. Ignorant.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 14, 2009 at 9:30 PM  

  • Dear Corporate Visa Workers (H-1B and L-1)

    In Honor of Memorial Day I invite you to recognize and value the hard work and contributions of Americans who have paid their dues and their taxes before we welcomed you to our country as temporary guest workers.

    You are fortunate. I hope you appreciate our lifestyle, education system, transportation and infrastructure.

    How would you feel if you were laid off from a job that you were highly qualified to perform?

    What if you were replaced by someone who never worked a single day in the United States?

    How would you feel after a successful tech career, advanced degrees, and never unemployed to be informed that you are now considered low wage and possibly eligible for food stamps?

    How would you feel day after day after day after day to be sending out resumes, and the only response you get are from H-1b recruiters offering Walmart wages?

    Corporate Guest Workers - Your American citizen hosts have paid a terribly high price personally so that you can enjoy the benefits of our country.

    Please stop taking our jobs. Please tell your friends back home that they will be more welcome when the economy improves.

    American Citizens - Tell Your Senators to Support S887

    The H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Bill

    This bill will reform current corporate visa laws that allow employers to bypass local talent and exclusively hire abroad for US jobs in the US.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 23, 2009 at 5:45 PM  

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